TAP DANCING IS A WAY OF ARTICULATING TIME.

AND IT'S A LONG TIME SINCE I DID IT.

MY TEACHER WAS MRS. MAUDE BARRETT.

SHE HAD A MANNER OF USING HER FOOT WITH THE TAP ON THE FRONT AND THE BACK.

AND ALSO ONE TIME SHE DID IT ON THE SIDE OF HER FOOT.

I NEVER FORGOT IT.

I'M REAL INTERESTED IN VERNACULAR CULTURES, WHERE PEOPLE LIVED A LITTLE CLOSER TO THE SOURCE OF MATERIALS AND THE MAKING OF OBJECTS FOR USE.

I'M REAL INTERESTED IN TRADES AND WAYS THAT PEOPLE MAKE THINGS, WHICH ARE NOT NECESSARILY ARTISTIC.

I MEAN, THEY'RE ARTISTIC IN THE SENSE THAT THEY CAN HAVE FORMAL BEAUTY, BUT THEY'RE NOT DONE WITH AN ARTISTIC MOTIVE, THEY'RE DONE OFTEN WITH A UTILITARIAN MOTIVE.

AS A WOODWORKER, I USE TOOLS ALL THE TIME.

AND THERE'S A CERTAIN ART HISTORY TO THE EVOLUTION OF WOODWORKING TOOLS IN ITSELF.

THESE ARE THE CARBON TOOLS WITH A SCOOP.

I MEAN, YOU LOOK AT THE FORMS THAT VARIOUS UTILITARIAN THINGS HAVE TAKEN THROUGHOUT HISTORY, AND THERE'S A WHOLE SORT OF SHIFTING SENSE OF BEAUTY.

IT IS A LADDER, IT'S MADE LIKE A LADDER.

IT'S MADE LIKE COUNTRY LADDERS YOU SEE IN PLACES WHERE PEOPLE WOULD CUT A TREE TRUNK IN HALF AND PUT RUNGS BETWEEN THE TWO HALVES.

AND THAT'S A LADDER.

THE TITLE CAME AFTER THE WORK WAS FINISHED.

I DIDN'T SET OUT TO MAKE A WORK ABOUT BOOKER T. WASHINGTON.

THE WORK WAS REALLY ABOUT USING A SAPLING, USING A TREE AND MAKING A WORK THAT HAD A KIND OF ARTIFICIAL PERSPECTIVE, A FORCED PERSPECTIVE, THAT MADE IT APPEAR TO RECEDE INTO SPACE FASTER THAN IT, IN FACT, DOES.

THAT REALLY WAS WHAT THE WORK IS ABOUT FOR ME, IS THIS KIND OF ARTIFICIAL PERSPECTIVE.

IT'S AN IDEA THAT REQUIRES A CERTAIN ACTUAL LENGTH.

IT'S A PIECE THAT COULDN'T HAVE BEEN DONE SMALL.

AS IT WAS, IT WAS 36 FEET LONG.

THE IDEA OF BOOKER T. WASHINGTON, THE RESONANCE WITH HIS LIFE AND HIS STRUGGLE AND THE WHOLE NOTION THAT HIS IDEA OF PROGRESS FOR THE RACE WAS A LONG, SLOW PROGRESSION OF, AS HE SAID, "PUTTING YOUR BUCKETS DOWN WHERE YOU ARE AND WORKING WITH WHAT YOU'VE GOT."

AND SO IT REALLY IS A QUESTION OF, LIKE, THE VIEW FROM WHERE YOU START AND THE END, THE GOAL.

AND I REALLY -- THIS IS SOMETHING I DON'T REALLY WANT TO ELABORATE ON TOO MUCH BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IN THE WORK.

I CAME FROM A GENERATION WHERE THE WORK WAS ITSELF THE INFORMATION.

THOUGH THERE REMAINS THIS BELIEF THAT THE WORK ITSELF CAN HAVE AN IDENTITY THAT CAN HOPEFULLY SPEAK.

WHETHER IT'S THROUGH BEAUTY OR THROUGH UGLINESS OR WHATEVER QUALITY YOU PUT INTO THE WORK, THAT IS WHAT THE WORK CAN BE ABOUT.

THE WORK DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A TRANSPARENT VEHICLE FOR YOU TO SAY THINGS ABOUT LIFE TODAY OR WHAT YOU SEE PEOPLE DOING TO EACH OTHER OR THINGS LIKE THAT.

I'M MAKING A CASE FOR MY OWN VISION.

IT CAN ACTUALLY MOVE IN A DIRECTION THAT HAS GOT SOME REPRESENTATIONAL TENDENCIES, OR SOME, AT LEAST SOME ELUSIVE TENDENCIES, OR SOME KIND OF TENDENCIES THAT ARE VERY SUGGESTIVE.

HAS IT BEEN 8 YEARS, HAVE YOU BEEN BACK SINCE?

I HAVEN'T BEEN BACK.

THIS IS MY FIRST VISIT SINCE IT WAS FINISHED.

I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING WHICH WAS LIKE A FOLLY, LIKE AN ARCHITECTURAL FOLLY, WHICH I THINK IT ENDED UP BEING.

IT JUST WAS AN ATTEMPT TO MAKE A WORK THAT HAD, UH, LITERALLY HAD TWO SIDES.

THAT THERE'S A GROTTO-LIKE HALF OF THIS EXPERIENCE THAT YOU CAN LOOK INTO, YOU CAN PEER INTO BUT NEVER REALLY ENTER.

IT'S MYSTERIOUS, HOPEFULLY, MYSTERIOUS.

YOU HAVE TO GET DOWN REAL LOW, AND THERE HAS TO BE A LOT OF AMBIENT LIGHT.

Puryear: AND THEN THERE'S THE OTHER SIDE OF IT THAT'S VERY MUCH A PROJECTION INTO SPACE.

IT'S A KIND OF MORE AGGRESSIVE, IF YOU WILL, A MASCULINE SIDE.

AND THE TWO ARE DIVIDED BY A WALL.

AND I WAS VERY INTERESTED IN WORKING WITH STONE.

THE IDEA OF REAL PERMANENCE WAS IMPORTANT TO ME.

AND THE IDEA OF MAKING SHAPES OUT OF THAT MATERIAL, STONE SHAPES IN SPACE THAT AREN'T ABOUT STRAIGHT WALLS AND 90CORNERS.

Man: I KNOW THE STONEMASONS LOVED THE IDEA, BUT WHEN THEY WERE HERE WORKING ON IT, THEY SAID THIS IS THEIR FAVORITE PART.

WHEN THEY GOT HERE AND THEY GOT TO THE WINDOW TO DO THINGS OTHER THAN A TRADITIONAL STONEWALL.

SO THERE'S THAT FALSE ARCH THAT'S OVER HERE.

DO YOU HAVE THOSE MAQUETTES?

OH, YEAH, ALL OF IT'S SAVED, IT'S PART OF THE ARCHIVE.

Puryear: STEVEN ALWAYS GETS EXTREMELY INVOLVED IN THESE PROJECTS AS A TROUBLESHOOTER, AND IT ALMOST SEEMS THAT THE MORE COMPLICATED THE PROJECT, THE MORE FASCINATING IT BECOMES FOR STEVEN.

IT DOESN'T SEEM TO AT ALL PUT HIM OFF.

JUST SORT OF MAKES HIM DIG DEEPER AND DEEPER INTO IT AND JUST USE ALL OF HIS CONTRACTOR'S INSTINCTS.

Steven: MOST OF THE VISITORS LIKE TO TAKE THEIR PICTURES ON THIS SIDE SO YOU GET THIS SHOT THROUGH THE WINDOW.

Puryear: STONE DOESN'T WANT TO GO OUT OVER SPACE.

AND THIS PIECE CANTILEVERS OUT TO ABOUT FIVE FEET.

AND SO IT TOOK SOME SERIOUS ENGINEERING TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN SAFELY.

AND, UM, THROUGH STEVEN'S WORK, HE KNEW OF A VERY, VERY GOOD STONEWORKER, EUGENE DOMENECELLI.

AND HE WAS A CRUCIAL PART OF THIS WHOLE PROCESS.

I THINK HE DID THE WHOLE DOME HIMSELF.

IT WAS A FUNNY THING ABOUT HOW WE COULD GET THIS SHAPE RIGHT.

BECAUSE HE WANTED TO LOOK AT THE MODEL AND JUST EYEBALL IT.

REMEMBER THAT?

AND I SAID, "GENE, I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE SOME KIND OF A GAUGE."

I'VE LEARNED THAT THERE'S A LOT OF KNOW-HOW OUT THERE THAT'S REALLY NICE TO COLLABORATE WITH AND USE.

AND, UM, I GUESS, WHAT I HAVE LEARNED IS HOW TO GIVE UP SOME OF THE CONTROL THAT I FELT I HAD TO HAVE OVER EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF IT.

BECAUSE THERE'S -- SOMETIMES THE OTHER PEOPLE'S INPUT CAN ACTUALLY OPEN UP YOUR THINKING TO POSSIBILITIES THAT YOU WEREN'T EVEN AWARE OF.

I THINK OF IT AS A MONOLITH, ALTHOUGH IT IS MADE FROM 18 STONES, BUT IT'S REALLY CARVED IN A WAY SO THAT IT BECOMES A CONTOURED SINGLE OBJECT.

IT CERTAINLY SUGGESTS A HEAD, A COLOSSAL HEAD.

AND I'VE DONE VARIOUS PIECES IN THE PAST THAT HAVE BEEN BASED ON THAT SAME IDEA OF AN ENORMOUS HEAD.

AND, UH, I'VE BEEN WANTING TO DO SOMETHING IN STONE, USING THIS KIND OF FORM FOR A LONG TIME.

I HAVE SPENT MOST OF MY WORKING LIFE MAKING WORK THAT MAY SEEM TO BE CARVED BUT WHICH IN FACT IS CONSTRUCTED, MADE FROM PARTS AND PUT TOGETHER.

AND ALTHOUGH THIS WAS MADE FROM 18 BLOCKS ASSEMBLED, ESSENTIALLY THE PROCESS OF SHAPING THE BLOCKS WAS ONE OF CARVING FROM SOLID MATERIAL.

AND I'VE NEVER CARVED STONE, I HAVEN'T CARVED SOME SINCE I LEFT COLLEGE REALLY.

AND WHEN I GOT NOTIFIED THAT THERE WAS AN INTEREST IN HAVING A COMMISSION OF MINE IN JAPAN, THE CHOICE OF MATERIAL WAS IN SOME WAYS SUGGESTED BY THE FACT THAT IT WAS JAPAN, BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUCH A TRADITION OF WORKING WITH STONE THERE.

ONE OF THE MAJOR CHALLENGES WAS JUST THE SHEER SCALE OF IT, THE SHEER SIZE OF WORKING WITH BLOCKS THAT LARGE, FINDING BLOCKS THAT LARGE.

THEY H TO BE LOCATED IN A VERY REMOTE PART OF CHINA AND THEN BROUGHT TO XIAMEN ON THE COAST WHERE THEY WERE WORKED IN A CITY THAT HAS A VERY, VERY LARGE STONE INDUSTRY.

YOU HAVE TO PICTURE THE SCALE.

THE CARVING REQUIRES DIAMOND TOOLS AND WATER TO DO IT EFFICIENTLY.

SO I HAD TO FIND A WAY TO REALLY TRANSMIT MY IDEAS TO ARTISANS, WHICH REQUIRED MAKING THE MODEL AT 1/10th SCALE.

THE MODEL COULD BE DISASSEMBLED AND THE TRACINGS MADE OF EACH BLOCK.

AND THOSE TRACINGS COULD BE ENLARGED 10 TIMES.

AND THAT'S THE BASIS THAT THEY USED FOR MAKING THE FINAL PIECE.

IN CHINA, IT WAS A LITTLE COMPLICATED BECAUSE I HAD TO TRANSLATE IN TWO STAGES.

YOU SEE HOW HERE, IT GOES IN TOGETHER?

I HAD A PERSON WITH ME WHO SPOKE JAPANESE AND ENGLISH.

IT WOULD BE CORRECT HERE AND BE CORRECT HERE.

AND THE PERSON IN THE STONE YARD SPOKE FLUENT JAPANESE, AND HE WAS CHINESE.

SO IT HAD TO GO FROM MY PERSON FROM JAPAN INTO CHINESE.

THE PIECE WAS IN FACT CARVED, MUCH MORE THAN I HAD ANTICIPATED, IN CHINA.

THE ACTUAL CONTOUR OF THE OUTSIDE WAS THOUGHT TO BE DONE IN JAPAN.

IT TURNS OUT THAT THAT WORK WAS LARGELY DONE IN CHINA.

THAT'S WHY I HAD TO GO TO CHINA TO SEE THE WORK IN PROGRESS.

THIS CAN'T BE A STRAIGHT LINE.

THE WORK WAS THEN DELIVERED TO THE SITE IN JAPAN.

I WAS INTRODUCED TO THIS MAN -- MR. OKAZAKI, WHO HAD WORKED WITH SCULPTORS A LOT, DONE A LOT OF CARVING FOR VARIOUS SCULPTORS, JAPANESE SCULPTORS.

AND VERY, VERY PROUD PERSON IN TERMS OF HIS WORKMANSHIP AND THE RESPECT THAT HE HAD FOR HIS WORK, JUST HIS ABILITIES.

ONCE THE PIECES WERE ASSEMBLED, THE SHAPING CONTINUED.

THERE WAS A WEEK'S WORTH OF CARVING ON-SITE.

MR. OKAZAKI AND HIS SON DID MOST OF THE CARVING WITH HAND CHISELS AND DIAMOND SAWS.

BUT THE SHAPING WAS MOSTLY DONE WITH HAND CHISELS BECAUSE OF THE SURFACE I WANTED.

I DIDN'T WANT A SURFACE THAT WAS IN ANY WAY GROUND OR POLISHED.

IT HAD TO HAVE MARKS OF THE CHISEL.

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE.

IT DOESN'T LOOK NATURAL, IT'S A VERY MANLY SURFACE.

IT HAS POCKMARKS FROM THE BLOWS OF EACH SHARP CHISEL.

CONTOURS ARE QUITE SMOOTH AND QUITE CONTINUOUS.

BUT RUN YOUR HAND OVER IT, AND IT FEELS LIKE YOU'RE RUNNING IT OVER A VERY ROUGH ROCK.

I THINK I DO DEAL IN FORMS THAT PEOP OFTEN SEE SOMETHING ORGANIC AND DERIVED FROM NATURE.

AND I'M CERTAINLY INTERESTED IN NATURE, I'M REAL FASCINATED BY NATURAL FORMS AND NATURAL PROCESSES.

BUT I'M PROBABLY MORE INTERESTED IN THE WAY CULTURAL FORMS EVOLVE.

THE MAKING PROCESS ITSELF AND THE HISTORY OF THE MAKING PROCESS FOR ME HAS ALWAYS BEEN A BIG GENERATOR OF IDEAS.

I'VE HAD A SPECIAL INTEREST IN DOMESTIC INTERIORS THAT ALSO ARE SCENES OF HORROR OR OF THE UNCANNY.

ONE OF THE MOST COMPELLING IMAGES WHEN I WAS TEENAGER WAS THE MOVIE "THE AMITYVILLE HORROR."

IN THAT MOVIE, THE STAIRWAY PLAYS A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE.

IT'S THE CENTRAL CORRIDOR ALONG WHICH A MEETING OF GAZES OCCURS BETWEEN THE HUMAN INHABITANTS, THE FAMILY, AND THIS NON-HUMAN INHABITANT, THE DEVIL.

THAT'S WHAT LED ME TO THE IDEA OF RE-CREATING THE CENTRAL STAIRWAY OF THE HOUSE.

SO IN THE FINAL PIECE, YOU REALLY HAVE TWO IMAGES.

LARGE PROJECTION LOOKING FROM THE TOP OF THE STAIRS DOWN INTO THE ENTRANCE.

COMING THROUGH A LIVE FEED FROM INSIDE THE DIORAMA.

AND AS YOU MOVE CLOSE TO THE WALL, YOU FIND A LITTLE HOLE WITH LIGHT COMING OUT OF IT.

AND LOOKING THROUGH THE HOLE, YOU SEE THE DIORAMA ITSELF.

YOU FIND YOURSELF LOOKING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE STAIRS, UPWARD TOWARD THE SECOND FLOOR.

MAKING IMAGES AND OBJECTS, YOU CAN'T HELP BUT THINK ABOUT WHAT IT IS YOU'RE ACTUALLY DOING BEYOND MERELY FABRICATION.

IN A WAY, YOU'RE REALLY SETTING UP RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN OBJECTS AND IMAGES AND PEOPLE.

I THINK OF "DUTCH INTERIOR" AS BEING AN EXPLORATION OF THIS KIND OF MOST BASIC AND FUNDAMENTAL OF RELATIONSHIPS, YOU KNOW, BETWEEN ONESELF AND ANOTHER.

THERE'S SOMETHING REALLY SEDUCTIVE ABOUT PRE-DIGESTED IMAGES.

IF YOU'RE SERVED LITERALLY 500 CHANNELS ON TV, LIKE, WHY GO OUT?

THERE'S A HUGE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT UNDERGIRDS EVERY INDIVIDUAL IMAGE WE SEE ON TV.

AND FOR ME IT'S VERY HARD TO DISSOCIATE THE SINGLE IMAGE FROM THAT ENTIRE NETWORK.

SO, YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION ALWAYS COMES UP, WHO'S USING WHO?

IS THE IMAGE MAKING US, OR DO WE MAKE IMAGES?

I'M REALLY ATTRACTED TO IMAGES OF AMAZING SPECTACLE.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BRINGS ME TO THE SPORTS SCENE.

SO IF YOU GET A CHANCE.

ESPECIALLY BIG EVENTS INVOLVING MASS AUDIENCES.

BUT ALSO THINGS LIKE NEWSCASTS, BEAUTY PAGEANTS, PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING, ALL KINDS OF STUFF.

IT SEEMS THAT THERE'S SOMETHING INHERENTLY COMPELLING ABOUT REPETITION AND ABOUT THE LOOP.

IT'S LIKE A FIREPLACE.

OR, YOU KNOW, IT'S SORT OF LIKE A MOTH TO THE FLAME.

UM, THERE'S JUST, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT KIND OF DRAWS YOU IN, MAKES YOU WANT TO JUST KIND OF STARE AT IT FOR A WHILE.

I BORROW SO MUCH OF WHAT I USE.

I THINK OF MYSELF MUCH LESS AS AN AUTHOR AND MORE... LIKE A POACHER OR A TRANSLATOR OR A MEDIATOR.

LAST NIGHT WAS REALLY QUITE UNIQUE.

I'M ACTUALLY AT THE GAME AS OPPOSED TO DRAWING FOOTAGE FROM THE TELEVISION.

STILL, IN A WAY, I FEEL LIKE I'M WATCHING SOMETHING LIKE A TV IMAGE.

AND I'M WATCHING MATERIAL THAT I'VE BEEN WORKING WITH ALREADY.

THE TITLE OF "FRAGMENT OF A CRUCIFIXION" IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM A FRANCIS BACON PAINTING FROM THE '50s.

AND LIKE MANY OF FRANCIS BACON'S FIGURES, HE'S SCREAMING.

AND THE QUESTION IS, SCREAMING WHY, OR BECAUSE OF WHAT?

I SAW IN THAT IMAGE OF THE BASKETBALL PLAYER, A FIGURE, AGAIN, SURROUNDED SENSORIALLY BY EXTREME SITUATION AT THE CENTER OF THE ATTENTION OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AND UNDER BRIGHT LIGHTS.

TO ME WHAT THAT IMPLIES IS A KIND OF SENSE OF THE FIGURE, AGAIN, DISSOLVING INTO THE ACCUMULATION OF CAPITAL UNTIL IT BECOMES AN IMAGE.

LITERALLY, PART OF IT IS THAT HE JUST MADE A MILLION DOLLARS.

UM, BUT IT ALSO SEEMS LIKE A VERY PRECARIOUS POSITION TO BE IN.

THERE IS A KIND OF HUMILIATION IN THAT PROCESS OF SIMPLY BECOMING OBJECTS OF ADMIRATION OR PEOPLE SIMPLY BECOMING CONSUMERS.

WHAT LED ME TO START WORKING ON "THE LONG COUNT" PIECES, WHERE THE BOXERS ARE ERASED FROM THE RING, WAS A FAILURE THAT I ENCOUNTERED WHEN I WAS WORKING ON "FRAGMENT OF A CRUCIFIXION."

IN THAT ORIGINAL SCENE, THERE WERE QUITE A FEW OTHER PLAYERS ON THE COURT.

SO I REMOVED THE OTHER PLAYERS, THE BASKETBALL HOOPS, AND QUITE A FEW OTHER DETAILS.

SO I WAS GOING VERY SLOWLY, FRAME BY FRAME, TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE WAS A KIND OF SEAMLESSNESS TO IT.

WHAT I FOUND WAS THAT THERE WAS ONE PARTICULAR FIGURE IN THE IMAGE, I COULD NOT GET ERASURE OF THAT FIGURE.

A FEW MONTHS LATER, JUST LOOKING BACK AT IT AGAIN, I THOUGHT IN A WAY THERE WAS SOMETHING REALLY INTERESTING AND INTEGRAL TO THE MATERIAL ABOUT THAT KIND OF EVIDENCE OF THE ERASURE.

SO I DECIDED TO TRY TO DO ANOTHER PIECE, "THE LONG COUNT" PIECES THAT CAPITALIZE A BIT MORE ON THIS QUALITY.

THAT'S WHAT I THINK OF IN A WAY AS CRAFT.

YOU KNOW, BUILDING A RELATIONSHIP TO THE MATERIAL, DISCOVERING THE THINGS THAT IT WILL DO DESPITE YOUR WILL THAT MAY END UP BEING MORE INTERESTING THAN WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO WILL THE MATERIAL TO DO.

I WOULD HAPPILY SIT IN MY ROOM AND DO THIS WORK ALL DAY.

IT'S A BIT LIKE MEDITATION.

I ALSO FEEL LIKE IT'S A BIT LIKE PAINTING OR DRAWING IN THE SENSE THAT YOU LEAVE YOUR EVERYDAY KIND OF CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE WORLD AND ACHIEVE A CERTAIN KIND OF FOCUS.

"MORNING AFTER THE DELUGE" IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM A PAINTING BY TURNER.

IT REFERS TO THIS INVESTIGATION OF PERCEPTUAL PHENOMENA IN NATURE AND ALSO HAS A BIBLICAL REFERENCE SINCE THE MORNING AFTER THE DELUGE IS FROM THE STORY OF NOAH'S ARK.

SO IF YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT IT, IT'S THE MORNING AFTER THE COMPLETE ANNIHILATION OF THE WORLD.

THESE DAYS, IT'S QUITE IDEALISTIC TO THINK OF THE VIEWER AS BEING ANYTHING BUT DISTRACTED GIVEN THE KIND OF IMAGE-SATURATED WORLD THAT PEOPLE FUNCTION IN.

IN "MORNING AFTER THE DELUGE," YOU HAVE TO BE THERE FOR AT LEAST A FEW MINUTES, IF NOT FOR THE FULL 20 MINUTES TO SEE THE FULL LOOP AND TO GET THE FULL SENSE OF THE SUN RISING AND SETTING.

IN A WAY, IT'S NOT VERY VIEWER FRIENDLY.

THE SHOT IS IN REAL TIME.

IT ALMOST LOOKS LIKE NOTHING'S HAPPENING.

YOU REALLY HAVE TO KIND OF STAND FOR A WHILE TO GET THE SENSE THAT THE SUN IS SLOWLY SETTING AND RISING.

IN THE MEANTIME, THOUGH, THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER ACTION THAT'S HAPPENING ON A MUCH SMALLER SCALE.

YOU HAVE BIRDS FLYING VERY QUICKLY THROUGH THE SCREEN.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE AT A PIXEL LEVEL, BARELY THERE AT ALL BUT PROJECTED BIG.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU GET TO SEE.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS MAYBE WHAT YOU ENTER IN ON AS A MOVING IMAGE.

BUT THEN AS YOU SIT WITH IT FOR A WHILE LONGER, THEN THE BIGGER MOVEMENTS BECOME ACCESSIBLE TO YOU.

I LIKE TO THINK THAT THERE MIGHT BE SOME WAY TO CREATE SOMETHING THAT, UM, THAT YOU COULD TAKE SOMETHING AWAY FROM IT, YOU KNOW, EVEN IF YOU'RE ONLY THERE FOR, LIKE, A FRACTION.

IF YOU'RE ASKING YOURSELF, "IS THERE ANYTHING BEYOND TELEVISION?"

YOU COULD TURN OFF THE TELEVISION AND GO OUTSIDE.

BUT I THINK WHAT'S MORE INTERESTING FOR AN ARTIST IS TO ATTEMPT TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION THROUGH AN EXPLORATION OF THE MEDIUM ITSELF.

AND I'M ATTEMPTING TO ANSWER IT THROUGH A KIND OF CREATION OF THE ILLUSION.

I ENDED UP DOING THIS EXTREMELY DETAILED WORK THAT I DETEST.

BUT I SOMEHOW WORK MYSELF INTO THIS SPACE, AND I'M HOPING TO WORK MYSELF OUT.

BUT I HATE TO ABANDON A WORK THAT I HAVE CARED FOR SO LONG.

I MEAN, I'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS LITTLE TINY PIECE FOR OVER A YEAR.

SO, YOU KNOW, THESE TWO IMAGES GO TOGETHER.

BUT I'M LEAVING OUT THE COMET BECAUSE I CAN'T STAND AN EVENT THAT EXCITING IN THERE.

I MEAN, I HAD THE COMET IN THERE, BUT NOW THE COMET IS MAYBE, I DON'T KNOW, MILLIMETERS UNDER HERE.

I HAVE REDONE THE IMAGE MANY, MANY TIMES, ONE ON TOP OF EACH OTHER.

AND I PAINT IT AND THEN I SAND IT OFF.

THIS LITTLE PHOTOGRAPH, WHICH I FOUND SOMEPLACE AND WHICH I'VE BEEN DRAGGING AROUND, YOU KNOW, IT'S A KIND OF AN INSPIRATION AND KIND OF A PLACE TO PUT YOUR MIND SO THAT IT ALLOWS ME TO MAYBE FOCUS MORE ON THE TOUCH, YOU KNOW, MY TOUCH ON AN IMAGE THAT HERE IS, LIKE, FOUND... FOUND BY ME AND THAT'S, LIKE, DESCRIBED IN A TOUCH, WHICH REMAINS PART OF THE WORK.

THIS MAY BE THE NINTH TIME I'M PAINTING IT.

EACH TIME I TRY TO ARTICULATE IT HOWEVER I'M ABLE TO AT THE TIME.

AND IF I LOSE IT, WHICH I OFTEN DO, THEN I PAINT IT AGAIN ON TOP OF ITSELF.

I MEAN, SOMEHOW I THINK THAT THE IMAGE THEN BEGINS TO HAVE A SORT OF MEMORY IN IT.

EVEN IF YOU CAN'T SEE IT, IT CAN BUILD UP A KIND OF A DENSE FEELING TOWARD THE END, AND THEN IT MAKES ME HAPPIER.

I'M VERY SUSPICIOUS OF ILLUSIONISM.

SO THE SPACE IS FLAT, AND I LIKE THAT.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I HAVE AN IMAGE -- WHAT I'D LIKE FOR IT TO DO IS TO, LIKE, GIVE A LITTLE SO THAT IT, LIKE, MAKES YOU WANT TO GO IN A LITTLE BIT.

SO YOU'RE LOOKING LIKE MAYBE YOU CAN LOOK IN THERE.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, BE KEPT OUT.

FOR ME THIS PART IS INTERESTING BECAUSE THIS IS A PART WHERE I'M, LIKE, BUILDING.

YOU KNOW, I'M BUILDING THE WORK FROM THE BEGINNING.

I KIND OF LIKE THE IDEA OF LAYING A FIELD OUT.

NOW, MANY TIMES I BEGIN, LIKE, WORKING WITH AN IMAGE ALREADY ON IT.

THIS TIME I THOUGHT I WOULD BUILD MORE OF A FIELD, THINKING, UM...

MEANING A FIELD THAT BEGINS TO FILL UP SOME OF THE GRAIN OF THE CANVAS ITSELF.

THIS IS ALL PART OF THE WORK.

IN FACT, I OFTEN NOW TALK ABOUT BUILDING A PAINTING INSTEAD OF, YOU KNOW, PAINTING A PAINTING.

LIKE I'M BUILDING A PAINTING, I'M MAKING A STRUCTURE THAT'S A PAINTING BECAUSE IT'S A TWO-DIMENSIONAL OBJECT.

THIS PAINTING HAS SUCH AN ILLUSIONISTIC SPACE IN IT.

I THINK I REMEMBERED KIND OF FEELING THE JOY OF BEING ABLE TO PAINT ANYTHING.

THAT TIME I PAINTED A LOT OF DIFFERENT OBJECTS, THINGS THAT TURNED ON, YOU KNOW, LIKE MY HOTPLATE AND THE LAMPS, EVERYTHING PRETTY MUCH I HAD IN THE STUDIO.

THEN I STARTED PAINTING IMAGES OF LITTLE CLIPPINGS, AND THIS IS ONE OF THEM.

I SORT OF LIKE THE PAINTING -- I'M TRYING TO SEE WHETHER IT CAN SORT OF HOLD UP TO MY HAVING HAD MAYBE 35 YEARS OF PAINTING AFTER IT.

I THINK I PAINTED THIS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE VIETNAM WAR.

I WAS REMEMBERING THE PLANES.

WHEN I WAS IN EUROPE MYSELF IN 1944, JUST A SMALL CHILD, I REMEMBER THE AIRPLANES.

THEY WERE -- I HAD NEVER SEEN ONE, OF COURSE, BUT I, I, UH, I HEARD THEM.

THIS IS A INVENTED THING.

YOU KNOW THAT IT'S NOT LIKE A COPY OF NATURE OR A COPY OF A PHOTOGRAPH.

IT'S AN INVENTED THING THAT YOU HAVE IN FRONT OF YOU.

BUT SEE THESE?

THESE ARE THESE LITTLE NUTS THAT I FOUND THAT HAVE THIS FANTASTIC SURFACE THAT'S LIKE THIS SURFACE.

I MEAN, I HAVE TO SAY, I'VE ALWAYS FOUND IT IMPOSSIBLE TO GO STRAIGHT FROM NATURE, ALTHOUGH I DID DO THAT SERIES OF STONES, DIDN'T I?

MOST OF THE CHANGES IN THE WORK OCCUR POKING AROUND MY OWN LIFE.

LIKE WHEN I PICKED UP THOSE ROCKS IN NEW MEXICO.

NEVER EVEN OCCURRED TO ME -- I HAD THEM IN THE BACK OF THE CAR, I PUT THEM OUT ON THE TABLE, AND I JUST HAD THIS INSTINCTIVE DESIRE TO MAKE THEM MYSELF, AS IF I WAS MAYBE A CREATOR MYSELF.

TO MAKE THEM MYSELF, TO SEE HOW CLOSE I COULD GET, LIKE A TEST OR SOMETHING LIKE A DISCIPLINE.

I HAD THEM CAST IN BRONZE AND THEN I PAINTED THEM.

AND I DECIDED THE PIECE SHOULD BE THE FOUND STONE AND THE ONE THAT IS SORT OF TRANSLATED BY ME.

BUT I HAVE BEEN LIKING THESE CHALKY SURFACES, AND I'M ATTRACTED TO THESE EYE-DAZZLING, YOU KNOW, THINGS.

FOR A WHILE, I THOUGHT I WOULD JUST REPEAT THE ONE IMAGE MY WHOLE LIFE.

WHEN I STARTED GOING DOWN AND TAKING PICTURES OF THE OCEAN, I THOUGHT, "WELL, I'LL JUST DO THIS OVER AND OVER "AND MAYBE SOMETHING WILL SHOW UP THAT IS AMAZING."

AND THEN, OF COURSE, I GOT TIRED OF IT, AND THEN I MOVED ON TO SOME OTHER THINGS, BUT NOT TOO MANY.

ONE OF THE THINGS I DID IS, I REPEATED THE IMAGE IN DIFFERENT MATERIALS.

LIKE FIRST, I STARTED JUST WITH THE PENCIL.

AND THEN WHEN I WAS ASKED TO DO THESE PRINTS, THE FIRST IMAGE I DID WAS A LITHOGRAPH.

I HAVE IT LIKE A DOG WITH HIS BONE.

I'VE HUNG ON TO THOSE THINGS, AND I MANEUVER IT A LITTLE BIT THIS WAY AND A LITTLE BIT THAT WAY, A LITTLE BIT THIS WAY.

IT'S LIKE LETTING SOMETHING UNCONSCIOUSLY SEEP INTO THE WORK...

SOME SUBTLETY THAT MY BRAIN WAS NOT CAPABLE OF FIGURING OUT BY SPENDING SO MUCH TIME WITH IT.

I TELL YOU THESE IMAGES JUST FLOAT THROUGH FROM MY LIFE.

THEY HAVE NO SYMBOLIC MEANING.

I MEAN, GENERALLY, I PICK IMAGES THAT ARE ALREADY SURFACES.

I DID THE SPIDER IMAGE THE FIRST TIME ABOUT 1992.

AND I THINK I LIKED THE IMAGE BECAUSE IT SORT OF HELD ON TO THE EDGES AND MADE THIS FLAT PLANE, WHICH I'M SO IN LOVE WITH.

THIS IMAGE HAS BEEN DRAWN ON A PIECE OF PAPER WITH CHARCOAL AND ALSO WITH AN ERASER, JUST A PLAIN ERASER, PINK PEARL.

THEN THAT WAS TRANSFERRED ONTO THE PLATE, AND THEN I WENT BACK IN AND I SCRAPED THE WEB ONCE MORE, LIKE BRINGING IT INTO MORE OF A FOCUS.

AN IMAGE THAT IS A CORNY IMAGE, RIGHT UP MY ALLEY, I GUESS.

AN IMAGE THAT'S GOT A LOT OF ASSOCIATIONS WITH IT, BUT AN IMAGE, WHICH I, OF COURSE, PUT IN THIS VERY COLD, SCIENTIFIC KIND OF A DRESSING.

BECAUSE MOST OF MY IMAGES -- WELL, I GUESS THEY ARE PRETTY EMOTIONAL IMAGES FOR SOME PEOPLE.

AND, UH...

IT'S LIKE ONE OF THE ELEMENTS THAT I KIND OF NEUTRALIZE.

EVEN THOUGH I'VE BEEN SORT OF OBSESSED WITH THIS IMAGE, YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF DESCRIBES THIS SPACE, I'M NOT REALLY -- I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I DON'T REALLY HAVE AN AGENDA HERE WHERE I LINE THEM UP AND DO IT ONE WAY.

EACH ONE, YOU KNOW, DEVELOPS HOW IT WANTS TO DEVELOP.

BUT I LIKE BEING BACK IN THE STUDIO AND SORT OF BACK IN THE, YOU KNOW -- WORKING WITH THIS STRANGE, TEDIOUS SURFACE.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT EMOTES AND IT'S MOTORIZED, AND IT IS AN EMOTER.

I CAN'T MAKE MOST OF THESE FACES MYSELF.

IT'S USING MY FACE BECAUSE THAT'S READILY AVAILABLE, AND I HAVE EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS TO MY FACE.

IT SEEMED, I GUESS, HONEST TO JUST USE MY OWN FACE.

I JUST TOOK MY DIGITAL CAMERA AND HELD IT OUT AND JUST TOOK A BUNCH OF SHOTS.

I TOOK IT INTO THE DEVELOPER AND HE PUT IT ON HIS SCREEN, AND WE PHOTOSHOPPED ALL OF THE FEATURES.

WE BLANKED OUT THE MOUTH AND THE NOSTRILS AND THE EYES SO I HAD JUST THIS KIND OF EGG HEAD WITH NO FEATURES, JUST THINKING THAT I'D WANT TO START WITH A BLANK FACE AND THEN I'D OVERLAY THE FEATURES FROM THE OTHER THREE KIND OF DONOR PHOTOGRAPHS.

THE BRAIN OF THE PIECE, OR THE DRIVER, IS JUST PICKING UP THE LIGHT AND DARK PATTERNS ON THE TELEVISION.

AND THERE ARE 19 OF THESE LITTLE SUCTION CUPS THAT HAVE LITTLE LIGHT-SENSITIVE SWITCHES IN THEM.

SO WHEN A CERTAIN AREA OF THE SCREEN GOES DARK, IT TRIGGERS THROUGH THESE DIFFERENT MECHANISMS.

IT EVENTUALLY TRIGGERS A MOTOR IN THE FACE.

SOMETIMES THE MANIPULATION IS REALLY SLIGHT DEPENDING JUST ON WHAT'S GOING THROUGH THE TV CHANNEL.

WHEN THERE'S A SPORTING EVENT WITH LOTS OF ACTIVITY, THE FACE CAN BE PRETTY EMOTIONAL.

I USE MY IMAGE OR MY BODY IN A LOT OF THE WORK AS A KIND OF JUMPING-OFF POINT.

BUT USUALLY THE END RESULT IS SO ABSTRACTED THAT I DON'T REALLY FEEL SO IDENTIFIED WITH IT ANY LONGER.

IT'S NOT ABOUT MY IDENTITY BUT IT'S ABOUT OUR IDENTITY AND OUR EXPERIENCES WITHIN OUR BODIES AND OUR BODY'S RELATIONSHIP TO THE EXTERNAL WORLD.

SOMETIMES WE DO GET RAIN IN L.A. AND A LOT OF US AREN'T REALLY PREPARED FOR RAIN.

SO IT WAS REALLY GREAT JUST WALKING IN ONE TIME AND THERE WERE BUCKETS AROUND ALL CATCHING THE DRIPS.

IT JUST HAD A GREAT SOUND IN THE SPACE.

SO I WAS INTERESTED IN USING DRIPPING WATER IN SOME WAY.

AND I DIDN'T WANT JUST RANDOM DRIPS, SO I WANTED SOMETHING THAT YOU COULD DANCE TO, SOMETHING KIND OF CHOREOGRAPHED-SOUNDING.

SO I ENDED UP MAKING THIS, I GUESS IT'S SORT OF A DRUMMING MACHINE.

SO THE SIGNAL IS SENT FROM THE MECHANISM OVER HERE THROUGH THIS CABLE TO THE DIFFERENT VALVES.

AND THEN THE WATER IS COLLECTED IN THESE BUCKETS.

SO I PUT IN THESE LITTLE PIE TINS, WHICH MAKE SORT OF A RESONATOR, REALLY GIVE A NICE, LOUD DRIP.

THE SIGNAL ORIGINATES WITH THESE GEARS.

EACH GEAR HAS A TTLE KNOB ON IT, A LITTLE BUMP.

EACH GEAR ALSO IS PAIRED UP WITH A SWITCH.

A DIFFERENT SWITCH COMES IN CONTACT WITH THE BUMP ON THE GEAR, AND IT GIVES IT A DIFFERENT PULSE.

IT'S NOT EVEN ELECTRONICS.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS, BECAUSE -- WELL, IT'S WIRING.

I THINK WHAT IT IS IS JUST MAKING CIRCUITS.

THE COPPER TAPE REPRESENTS ALL THE DIFFERENT POSSIBLE PERMUTATIONS OF GEARS.

SOME OF THESE PIECES HAVE BECOME A LITTLE MORE COMPLEX.

AND THEY'RE TRYING TO DO MORE THINGS.

AND THEN IT'S SENT THROUGH, I THINK, THIS SWITCH HERE.

THOSE ARE THE MAIN ASPECTS OF THE WORK THAT END UP HAVING PROBLEMS AND BREAKING DOWN.

SO MAYBE I NEED TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL OR ACTUALLY TAKE A COURSE IN IT.

I WAS JUST THINKING OF THE SORT OF CREATURE THAT'S ALLOWED TO GROW IN A ZERO-GRAVITY ENVIRONMENT.

AND NOW IT'S BEING HUNG OUT TO DRY.

THIS FORM GREW OUT AS A THREE-DIMENSIONAL EXPANSION OF DRAWINGS THAT I WAS WORKING ON ACTUALLY USING A DRILL TO SPIN A PENCIL AROUND.

AND YOU CAN SEE THAT THE PENCIL THAT I WAS SPINNING AROUND, AND I WAS ABLE TO OPEN AND CLOSE THE DIAMETER OF THE SPIN WHILE IT WAS IN MOTION.

SO I WAS ABLE TO CREATE DRAWINGS THAT WERE ALMOST KIND OF REMINISCENT OF INTESTINES OR WORMS.

THERE'S A CERTAIN FRESHNESS IN A DRAWING WHERE YOU'RE SEEING SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME.

AND SO IN MY WORK I TRY TO MAINTAIN SOME OF THAT FRESHNESS AND KEEP SHIFTING WHAT IT IS THAT I'M LOOKING AT TO SEE IT DIFFERENTLY OR CREATING A DIFFERENT PROCESS OF LOOKING AT SOMETHING THAT GIVES ME A NEW KIND OF INTERPRETATION.

I DON'T DO PRELIMINARY DRAWINGS FOR PIECES.

MAYBE I CAN'T THINK THAT FAR IN ADVANCE AND REALLY VISUALIZE THE PIECE IN A FINISHED STATE.

I FIND IT MUCH FREER TO GO RIGHT IN AND START MAKING THE PIECE.

I JUST SAID THAT I NEVER MAKE PRELIMINARY STUDIES OR ANYTHING, BUT FOR "UBERORGAN," I DID MAKE MODELS OF BALLOONS.

THAT PROCESS INVOLVED BEING APPROACHED BY MASS MoCA AND THEY WONDERED WHAT I WOULD DO WITH A SPACE THAT WAS BASICALLY THE SIZE OF A FOOTBALL FIELD.

I CAME UP WITH THIS IDEA OF USING INFLATABLES.

I THINK I WAS JUST A LITTLE NERVOUS ABOUT FILLING 15,000 SQUARE FEET.

I DIDN'T WANT TO GET CAUGHT SHORT-HANDED, SO I FELT MUCH BETTER SEEING THESE LITTLE MODELS IN THIS SPACE.

IT WAS GOING TO HAVE A REAL STRONG PHYSICAL PRESENCE.

BUT I FELT LIKE IT NEEDED TO ALSO HAVE THIS AUDIBLE COMPONENT.

[ MUSIC BLARES ] IT WAS A GREAT MOMENT WHEN IT WAS FINALLY UP AND PLAYING.

I THINK FOR ME IT WAS JUST LIKE HEARING THE FIRST HORN.

[ HORN BLARES ] I WAS REALLY CONCERNED THAT WE'D HAVE ENOUGH AIR PRESSURE TO ACTIVATE THE REEDS TO REALLY GET A GOOD TONE OUT OF THEM BUT THAT WE WOULDN'T, LIKE, POP ANY BALLOONS.

SOMETHING THAT LARGE REALLY DOES HAVE TO BE UNDER A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF AIR PRESSURE TO GET A SOUND OUT OF THE REED.

I USED FISHING NET AND TAILORED THAT AROUND THE BALLOONS.

AND I WAS ABLE TO FURTHER DEFINE THEM, CINCH THEM IN.

IT WAS NEAT.

IT WAS A REALLY QUICK WAY OF CONTROLLING A HUGE VOLUME.

MASS MoCA WAS ONE OF THE BIG, LONG, KIND OF NARROW SPACE.

THE GALLERY IN NEW YORK WAS DIVIDED INTO, LIKE, SIX ROOMS, ONE GIGANTIC ROOM AND SOME SLIGHTLY SMALLER ROOMS.

I WAS AFRAID THAT THE SOUND QUALITY MIGHT BE LOST.

BUT IN THE END I WAS REALLY HAPPY WITH THE SOUND.

SO, UM, YOU KNOW... EACH WHATEVER NOTE THIS IS JUST PLAYS ONE NOTE ON THE UBERORGAN.

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN HE MADE, UH, WELL, MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS, FOR INSTANCE.

HE TOOK BANJO LESSONS.

AND THAT WAS -- HE WAS PROBABLY ABOUT 12 OR SO.

I'VE BEEN INTERESTED IN MUSIC FOR MOST OF MY LIFE, I GUESS.

BECAUSE AT ONE POINT I THOUGHT MAYBE I WOULD BE A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT-MAKER.

I HAD MADE A MANDOLIN AND A GUITAR.

THE KEYBOARD CONSISTS BASICALLY OF THESE PHOTOSENSITIVE SWITCHES.

SO BY COVERING ONE OF THE SWITCHES, BLOCKING OUT THE LIGHT, YOU'D TRIGGER ONE OF THE NOTES.

SO YOU CAN STOP IT AT A BLANK SPACE AND PLAY IT LIKE A PIANO, LIKE A LIGHT-SENSITIVE PIANO.

IT'S ALL BASED ON A SCORE THAT I PUT TOGETHER USING LOTS OF OLD CHURCH HYMNS AND "SAILOR'S HORNPIPE" AND "SWAN LAKE."

SO I GREW UP HEARING THESE OLD PROTESTANT HYMNS.

AND SOME OF THEM ARE REALLY BEAUTIFUL.

AND THEY BRING STRONG CONNOTATIONS AND MEMORIES BACK.

AND ALSO, YOU KNOW, REFLECT FAITH.

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