>> TURNING DOWN THE POLITICAL HEAT.

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WELCOME TO COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

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THE STUNNING MURDER OF CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST CHARLIE KIRK HAS ONCE AGAIN FOCUSED ATTENTION ON HYPER HEATED POLITICAL RHETORIC.

A GUNMAN USING A HIGH POWERED RIFLE KILLED KIRK WEDNESDAY AS HE SPOKE AT A UTAH VALLEY UNIVERSITY RALLY ON FRIDAY, AUTHORITIES ANNOUNCED THEY ARRESTED A 22 YEAR OLD MAN IN CONNECTION WITH THE SHOOTING.

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OFFICIALS SAY TYLER ROBINSON WAS ARRESTED AFTER FAMILY MEMBERS URGED HIM TO SURRENDER.

KIRK'S MURDER IS THE LATEST INCIDENT OF VIOLENCE DIRECTED AT POLITICIANS.

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THE MURDER OF A MINNESOTA LAWMAKER AND HER SPOUSE.

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THE FIREBOMBING OF THE PENNSYLVANIA'S GOVERNOR'S MANSION, AND TWO ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS ON PRESIDENT TRUMP.

GENE KREBS, THERE ALWAYS CALLS FOR CIVILITY, LOWERING THE TEMPERATURE, CALLING EACH OTHER NAMES.

IT ALWAYS GOES AWAY.

DOESN'T LAST THIS TIME?

>> I WISH I COULD BE THE IRRATIONAL OPTIMIST YOU ARE HOPING FOR.

THIS COUNTRY HAS A PROBLEM, AND THAT IS, OKAY, LINCOLN WAS SHOT.

GARFIELD, McKINLEY, HARRY TRUMAN ALMOST GOT SHOT BY PUERTO RICAN SEPARATIST.

THEN YOU GO TO THE 1960S, A LOT OF ASSASSINATIONS.

THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG IN HOW WE DECIDE OR MAKE OUR DECISIONS THAT ENDS UP WITH TOO MUCH CONFLICT OCCURRING BETWEEN THE PARTIES.

I WILL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

GREAT BRITAIN HAS HAD ONE PRIME MINISTER ASSASSINATED EVER.

OKAY?

THIS IS UNHEARD OF IN EUROPE.

YOU KNOW, THIS JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN.

AND OTHER DEMOCRATIC REPUBLICS.

>> SO IT IS THE BOLD NATURE OF THIS ASSASSINATION, AT A RALLY, CAUGHT BY A CAMERA IN FRONT OF 3000 PEOPLE.

THE PERSON WHO IS KILLED, CHARLIE KIRK, BEING A LIGHTNING ROD.

DOES THAT AMP UP THE ANGER?

>> I THINK SO.

ABSOLUTELY.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, AT THIS POINT THERE'S A LOT OF TURNINGS OF THE TIDE.

YOU HAVE HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES, WHERE I AM A GRADUATE OF, HOWARD UNIVERSITY, THAT OF BEEN ON LOCKDOWN.

THEY HAD TO CANCEL CLASSES, AS WELL.

SO YOU THINK ABOUT IT AND YOU SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING, AND YOU REALIZE THAT WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE ARE PUTTING DOWN THE GUNS.

WE NEED TO HAVE REGULAR CONVERSATION WITH FOLKS.

WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO BE OPEN TO OPEN COMMUNICATION, AND MAKE SURE THAT THIS THING DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW IS AT A FORK IN THE ROAD.

I THINK ABOUT THE HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES, THAT I MENTIONED, THAT ARE UNDER ATTACK, GETTING THREATS.

I ALSO THINK OF THE MALCOLM'S, THE MARTINS THAT WERE ASSASSINATED, AS WELL.

FOR THEIR OPINIONS.

SO WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE ARE HAVING OPEN CONVERSATION WITH FOLKS, BE ABLE TO HEAR THE OTHER SIDE, BUT ALSO MAKE SURE THAT ANY DISAGREEMENTS WE HAVE, WE HANDLE THAT IN THE CIVIL WAY, AS WELL.

>> THE DISAGREEMENTS, SOCIAL MEDIA.

THE GOVERNOR OF UTAH TODAY CALLED A CANCER.

HOW MUCH OF THAT CAN WE BLAME ON THIS?

>> TRULY, I THINK IT PLAYS A BIG ROLE IN POLITICAL POLARIZATION.

THIS IS SOMETHING I AM INTENTIONAL ABOUT, AS A POTENTIAL GARNER LIST.

I THINK ABOUT THE WAY I TALK ABOUT THINGS.

I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S TRUE OF 80% OF SOCIAL MEDIA USERS.

I WATCHED HOW THIS UNFOLDED.

PEOPLE SAY THAT THE VIDEO ITSELF, WHICH GOT SHARED, THIS HORRIBLE SHOOTING, THAT KIND OF THING CONTRIBUTES TO POLITICAL POLARIZATION.

I HAVE NOT SEEN THE UTAH GOVERNOR'S COMMENTS, BUT I THINK THAT IS A PRETTY APT CRITICISM AND DECLINATION , IN PART, OF WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE.

>> COULD THIS STIFLE FREE SPEECH?

ESPECIALLY ON A COLLEGE CANVAS.

IN 2017, OSU DENIED RICHARD SPENCER, WEISER PREMISES, PERMISSION TO SPEAK ON CAMPUS, BECAUSE THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT SECURITY AND THEY SAID IT WAS A DANGER TO PUBLIC SAFETY AND DENIED HIM PERMISSION TO SPEAK ON CAMPUS.

HE SUED, AND THEY DROPPED THE CASE.

BUT YOU CAN SEE, WHO WOULD HAVE SOMEBODY LIKE CHARLIE KIRK ON CAMPUS NOW?

>> YES, EXCEPT THAT THE RIGHT FOR FREE SPEECH, ACCORDING TO THE RECENT RULINGS OF THE SUPREME COURT, INCLUDING THE ROBBINS COURT, PRETTY DARN WELL NEAR ABSOLUTE.

THAT I WANT TO GO BACK TO ONE MORE THING.

YOU ARE RIGHT TO SAY BEFORE, THIS IS THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT SETTLED THE ISSUE OF SLAVERY VIA A CIVIL WAR.

EVERYBODY ELSE WAS ABLE TO DO IT THROUGH LEGISLATIVE MEANS, IMPERIAL EDICTS, THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

ONCE AGAIN, I THINK WE NEED TO DO SOME DEEP DISCUSSIONS AMONGST OURSELVES TO FIND OUT WHAT IS IT ABOUT HOW WE ARE CONSTRUCTED THAT LEADS US TO THIS INABILITY TO CONSTRUCTIVELY COME UP WITH THIS DIALOGUE AND , INSTEAD, DIVIDED INTO FACTIONS SO EASILY HERE.

THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG.

>> EVEN THE HISTORY, I MEAN, I DON'T HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF HOPE.

IT GOES BACK TO HUNDRED YEARS.

>> YEAH, I WOULD ARGUE IT GOES EVEN FURTHER THAN 200 YEARS.

I MEAN, THE FOUNDING OF THIS COUNTRY IS THE EPITOME OF MAKING SURE THAT FOLKS WERE NOT ABLE TO AGREE, WHETHER IT IS CLASS, WHETHER IT IS RACE, AND WE ARE SEEING THAT UNFOLD RIGHT NOW.

I MENTIONED THE MALCOLM'S AND THE MARTINS, AND SOME OF THE PRESIDENT, TOO.

THAT IS THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY.

SO, UNFORTUNATELY, I HAVE SOME THOUGHTS THAT I DON'T THINK WE ARE GOING TO GET THERE, UNFORTUNATELY.

I HOPE WE CAN HAVE MORE CONVERSATION AND BE ABLE TO HAVE THAT DIALOGUE, BUT THE EUROPEANS HAVE FIGURED THIS OUT, AS DEAN MENTIONED, AS WELL.

WE NEED TO DO THAT AS WELL.

>> WE ARE GETTING CLOSER TO A MORE INTENSE CAMPAIGN SEASON, THE RACE FOR GOVERNOR.

AMY ACTON IS RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR.

SHE FACED DEATH THREATS AND HAD PEOPLE ON HER FRONT LINE WITH GUNS.

THE BACK RAMASWAMY IS A VERY ROBUST SPEAKER.

HE DOES NOT QUITE AS OUT THERE AS CHARLIE KIRK WAS, BUT HE IS A POWERFUL FORCE.

A BIG TRUMP SUPPORTER.

HOW DO THESE CAMPAIGNS CHANGE, DO YOU THINK?

>> WITH BOTH OF THOSE CANDIDATES, I'M GOING TO BE OPTIMISTIC AT THIS MOMENT THAT THEY WILL BE RESPONSIBLE WITH THE THINGS THAT THEY SAY.

IT IS HARD TO ANTICIPATE WHERE THE COUNTRY IS GOING TO BE A YEAR FROM NOW.

I WOULD NOT HAVE PREDICTED THIS TWO YEARS AGO OR A YEAR AGO.

SO HOPEFULLY THAT IS THE CASE, THAT THEY WILL HAVE A MEASURED TONE.

I MEAN, THEY WILL BE TALKING ABOUT STATE GOVERNMENT ISSUES, WHICH DON'T TEND TO BE AS HOT BUTTON AS SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS OUT THERE.

IT'S REALLY HARD TO SAY, BUT I WANTED YOU TO BE OPTIMISTIC RIGHT NOW, ESPECIALLY WITH WHO THE CANDIDATES ARE.

>> I'M GOING TO PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT.

I KNOW OF THE CITY COUNCIL PERSON INVITE DALIA WHO GETS THREATS ALMOST EVERY WEEK.

WE ARE TALKING A LOCAL, MEDIUM- SIZED, SMALL SIZED CITY.

SO I THINK IT'S OUT THERE.

I JUST DON'T THINK THAT THE MEDIA IS NECESSARILY AWARE OF IT.

YEAH, IT GOES ON.

>> I WOULD ARGUE, TOO, IT IS ALSO ON THE LEADERS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE CALLING THIS DOWN AND SAYING THAT THIS IS NOT APPROPRIATE AND THIS IS NOT WHO WE ARE.

I MEAN, WHEN FOLKS COME OUT AND IMMEDIATELY ADDRESS IT AND NOT TRY TO ADD TO THE FUEL TO THE FIRE, I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT.

A LOT OF FOLKS NEED TO DO THAT MORE.

>>, IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH I THINK THERE WAS THAT.

WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS WEEK ONE, WEEK TWO, WEEK THREE.

ESPECIALLY AS WE LEARN MORE ABOUT THE MOTIVATION OF THE SHOOTER.

WHICH, APPARENTLY, EARLY INDICATIONS ARE THAT WERE POLITICS INVOLVED.

OUR NEXT TOPIC,THIS WEEK PROVIDED MORE INFORMATION ON THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CHILD SEX OFFENDER JEFFREY EPSTEIN AND LIMITED FOUNDER LES WEXNER EPSTEIN'S 50TH BIRTHDAY TRIBUTE BOOK RELEASED BY A HOUSE COMMITTEE INCLUDED A NOTE APPARENTLY WRITTEN BY WEXNER.

IT READS.

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DEAR JEFFREY I WANTED TO GET YOU WANT YOU WANT.

SO HERE IT IS.

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HAPPY BIRTHDAY FROM YOUR FRIEND LESLIE.

THE NOTE INCLUDED SKETCHES OF FEMALE BREASTS.

THE NEXT PAGE OF THE BOOK FEATURED A PICTURE OF WEXNER AND EPSTEIN AT SOME KIND OF PARTY.

A SPOKESMAN FOR WEXNER DECLINED TO COMMENT.

THE NOTE WAS WRITTEN A FEW YEARS BEFORE WEXNER SAYS HE CUT OFF ALL CONTACT WITH EPSTEIN.

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WEXNER HAS CLAIMED HE WAS NEVER AWARE OF ILLEGAL ACTIVITY BY EPSTEIN.

NOT MUCH NEW HERE EXCEPT THAT WE LEARN MORE ABOUT THE CREEPY NATURE OF JEFFREY EPSTEIN AND HOW MANY PEOPLE , WEXNER, DONALD TRUMP, CONTRIBUTED TO THAT WERE FED INTO THAT.

>> YEAH, THIS IS A REALLY COMPLEX CASE, THERE'S A LOT OF LAWSUITS, AND CRIMINAL CASES INVOLVING JEFFREY EPSTEIN.

I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON EVERYTHING THAT IS OUT THERE IN THE PUBLIC RECORD, BUT I KNOW THAT IT IS KNOWN THAT WEXNER AND EPSTEIN WERE ASSOCIATES.

SO THIS BOOK THAT CAME OUT, TO SOME EXTENT, IT JUST KIND OF PROVES WHAT WE ALREADY KNEW.

YES, BUT SEEING THE DRAWINGS AND KIND OF THE RIBALD HUMOR, IT IS MEMORABLE AND ILLUSTRATES KIND OF , IN RETROSPECT, IT LOOKS LIKE PEOPLE SHOULD'VE KNOWN WHAT WAS GOING ON AND THEY DID NOT SAY ANYTHING.

>> YEAH, THIS IS NOT LOCKER ROOM TALK.

REMEMBER WHEN I CAME OUT, THE ACCESS HOLLYWOOD TYPE?

IS THIS WHAT THIS IS?

DO PEOPLE WRITE THIS OFF IS THAT?

OR IS A MUCH MORE THAN THAT?

>> IT IS MUCH MORE THAN THAT.

IN FACT, IT HAS GOTTEN TO THE POINT WHERE SOME REALLY DEEP QANON TRUMPIANS HAVE TAKEN DOWN THEIR TRUMP FLAGS BECAUSE OF THIS.

I'M NOT A CRISIS MANAGEMENT EXPERT LIKE MARK WEAVER IS ON YOUR SHOW, BUT I'M GOING TO CHANNEL MY INNER MARK WEAVER HERE.

AND SAY FOR ALL MY FELLOW REPUBLICANS , WHATEVER IT IS YOU HAVE, COME CLEAN AND SAY IF YOU HAVE TAKEN MONEY FROM LESS WEXNER, RETURN IT.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU USED TO CALL FOR EPSTEIN FILES TO BE RELEASED, STAY CONSISTENT WITH THAT.

JUST GET THIS THING BEHIND YOU, BECAUSE IT'S THE DELAY, IT'S THE ALTERCATION THAT MAKES IT WORSE.

>> TO THOSE CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS, WEXNER HAS CONTRIBUTED TO CAMPAIGNS, REALLY A LOT TO REPUBLICANS, BUT ALSO TO SEND DEMOCRATS.

CAN THEY TAKE ANY DONATION FROM WEXNER AFTER THAT?

>> I WENT.

PERSONALLY.

I THINK THIS IS A TIME WHERE YOU BE TRANSPARENT.

AND ALSO CONTINUE TO CALL FOR THE FACT THAT THE EPSTEIN FILES SHOULD BE RELEASED.

TRANSPARENCY IS KEY.

THE MORE THAT FOLKS SHY AWAY FROM IT, AND KEEP THIS IN THE SHADOWS, THE LARGER THE BOGEYMAN IS GOING TO BE.

AND WE NEED TO GO AHEAD AND OPEN THE DOOR AND BE MORE TRANSPARENT.

IF I WERE THE POLITICAL CANDIDATE, I WOULD ADVISE FOLKS TO NOT TAKE ANY DONATIONS.

JUST BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW, STILL, ALL THE DETAILS OF WHAT IS OUT THERE.

>> THIS DOES INCREASE THE CALLS FOR THE RELEASE OF ALL THE FILES.

WHEN YOU SEE WHAT IS IN THIS BOOK.

I MEAN, THIS IS A SMALL PORTION OF WHAT IS OUT THERE, APPARENTLY.

>> YEAH, AND DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN LEANING INTO THAT.

WE SAW AMY ACTON CALL FOR RAMASWAMY ABOUT SIX WEEKS AGO, IN A PREVIOUS DEVELOPMENT IN THE STORY, TO TRY TO GET THEM TO WEIGH IN ON WHAT HE THINKS NOW.

BECAUSE HE IS ONE OF MANY PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT WHO, BEFORE DONALD TRUMP CAN PRESIDENT, CALL FOR THE FILE TO BE RELEASED.

WITH ALL ACTON RENEWED THE CALL THIS WEEK.

IT IS PRETTY CLEAR THAT THEY SEE THIS AS SOMETHING THAT TRUMP RAN ON AND THAT HIS SUPPORTERS DON'T LIKE NOW THAT HE IS HYPOCRITICAL.

THEY ARE LEANING INTO IT.

THE POLITICS ARE QUITE CLEAR.

>> ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, JOHN HOUSTON IS A SENATOR.

HE MAY HAVE TO VOTE ON THIS AT SOME POINT.

I THINK IT WAS A PROCEDURAL VOTE THAT HE VOTED NOT TO RELEASE, AT LEAST AT THIS POINT.

AND THEN VIVEK RAMASWAMY HAS TO TAKE A STAND, HE IS GOVERNOR.

>> IT IS KRYPTONITE.

I CAN'T EMPHASIZE THAT ENOUGH.

MY PEOPLE HUSBAND X NUMBER OF YEARS HAMMERING ABOUT THE EPSTEIN FILES, HE WAS KILLED IN PRISON, ALL THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

AND NOW THEY ARE GOING NOW, WE WANT TO SEE EVERYTHING.

THE MORE YOU HIDE, THE MORE YOU DELAY, THE MORE IT LOOKS LIKE SOMEBODY , AND I'VE GOT TO AGREE WITH THOMAS MASSEY ON THIS.

HE SAID THAT TRUMP PROBABLY IS NOT INVOLVED HIMSELF, BUT A LOT OF HIS GOOD FRIENDS AND DONORS MAY BE INVOLVED, AND HIS CLINICAL PARTNERS.

BUT IT HAS JUST GOT TO COME OUT.

STAUNCH THE BLEEDING NOW.

CAUTERIZE THE WOUND.

>> WITH THE FIRST OF SEVERAL DEADLINES APPROACHING, OHIO DEMOCRATS HAVE TAKEN THE FIRST STAND IN THE UPCOMING REDISTRICTING PROCESS.

DEMOCRATS THIS WEEK UNVEILED THEIR MAP.

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UNDER THEIR PLAN, OHIO'S 15 CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS - IN THEORY - WOULD BE MORE BALANCED THAN THEY ARE NOW.

HISTORIC VOTING PATTERNS INDICATE REPUBLICANS WOULD BE FAVORED IN 8 DISTRICTS, DEMOCRATS IN 7Ö CURRENTLY 10 REPUBLICANS AND FIVE DEMOCRATS REPRESENT OHIO.

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AND SPECULATOIN IS REPUBLICAN MAPS WILL TRY TO WIN AT LEAST TWO MORE SEATS FOR REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES.

I TALKED TO MINORITY LEADER EISEN THIS WEEK.

HE SAID THIS MAP REPRESENTS OHIO AND HAS COMPETITIVE DISTRICTS, WHERE, DEPENDING ON THE YEAR, THE DEMOCRATS CAN SWING SOME OF THOSE.

BUT IS THIS GOING TO BE ANYTHING LIKE WHAT WE SEE WHEN THIS IS ALL OVER?

>> YOU KNOW, I DOUBT IT.

BUT I AM OPTIMISTIC.

BECAUSE I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS SEVERAL YEARS AGO, THE DEMOCRATS ARE ON THE UNITED FRONT.

THE DEMOCRATS HAVE COME TOGETHER , SENATE AND ALSO HOUSE, TO RELEASE THIS MAP.

WE DID NOT SEE THAT LAST TIME.

SO I LIKE THAT THEY ARE EARLY, I LIKE THAT THEY ARE DOING THIS AND MAKING SURE FOLKS KNOW.

WHILE ALSO MAKING SURE THAT THE SPEAKER KNOWS HOW MUCH ALSO.

AND I ALSO KNOW THAT THE SPEAKER HAS ALREADY SAID THAT THAT IS NOT GOING TO FLY.

BUT , YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS IS A REALLY GOOD EFFORT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, LOCALLY, AND ALSO ON THE STATE LEVEL, TOO.

WE DON'T SEE THIS A LOT FROM HER DEMOCRATIC COLLEAGUES.

SO I'M HAPPY THAT THEY HAVE COME OUT EARLY, THEY SAID THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT, AND THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY STAND FOR IT.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO DRAG ON AND BE A VERY LONG FIGHT.

BUT I AM HAPPY TO SEE THAT THEY HAVE COME TOGETHER AND I HOPE THAT DOWN THE ROAD THAT THIS WILL ACTUALLY HELP.

BECAUSE OF THE END OF THE DAY, THIS IS ABOUT THE CONSTITUENTS AND MAKING SURE WE ARE ABLE TO GET WHAT WE NEED.

BUT I DO THINK THE DEMOCRATS SHOULD HAVE AN ADDITIONAL SEAT IN THE CONGRESSIONAL LEGISLATURE.

SO THAT WE CAN MAKE SURE THAT THINGS ARE MORE FAIR.

>> SO, THIS NOW COMES THE POINT IN THE SHOW LIKE WHERE I BEAT LIKE A RENTED MULE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

IN 2009 THEY WERE OFFERED A FAIR DEAL, AND THEY AGREED TO IT, INITIALLY.

AND THEN THEY SAID OH, NO, WAIT, WE THINK WE CAN RUN THE TABLE.

THEY GOT GREEDY.

SO THIS WHOLE THING, I KEEP GOING BACK TO, IS THE ABSOLUTE MIND BOGGLING INEPTNESS OF MY OPPOSITION.

AND, AS THE BIBLE SAYS, IRON SHARPENS IRON.

I WANT A GOOD, WORTHY OPPONENT, AND I'M NOT GETTING IT .

FOR THEM TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS, I'M GOING GO AWAY.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY MAPS THAT HAVE BEEN UNVEILED, AS YOU WELL KNOW.

IN THIS PROCESS, THE DEMOCRATS , AT LEAST THEY GOT OUT EARLY IN THIS ONE.

THEY ARE AHEAD OF WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE PAST.

DOES THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

>> I THINK PROBABLY WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO IS EITHER KICKSTART NEGOTIATIONS OR HIGHLIGHT THE FACT THAT REPUBLICANS ARE NOT NEGOTIATING WITH THEM.

I ACTUALLY DON'T READ MUCH INTO WHAT MATT HOFFMAN SAYS ABOUT THESE THINGS, BECAUSE I THINK THE INCENTIVES ARE SO CLEAR, THE WAY THE PROCESS WORKS.

THE WAY TO NOVEMBER WHEN THEY WILL PASS A MAP WITH NO DEMOCRATIC VOTES AND TAKING 70 CONSIDERATION, BUT THAT KIND OF ASIDE OUT THERE, HOFFMAN RESPONDED TO THIS BY SAYING WELL, WE WOULD LIKE TO NEGOTIATE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.

BUT IT'S NOT A GREAT START WHEN THEY ARE ANNOUNCING THE STUFF IN THE MEDIA BEFORE THEY TAUGHT US.

THAT'S HERE IS ON IT.

IT IS KIND OF A CAT AND MOUSE GAME.

BUT I THINK WE WILL PROBABLY SEE THIS MONTH PASS WITHOUT A MAP BEING INTRODUCED, AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT THE DEMOCRATS WANT TO HIGHLIGHT.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK THE STATES OF ENGLAND, THERE IS NOT ONE REPUBLICAN REPRESENTED.

THEY ARE LIBERAL, BUT AT LEAST 40% OF THE FOLKS THERE ARE CONSERVATIVE.

SO THOSE ARE GERRYMANDERED DISTRICTS.

IS IT FAIR THAT OHIO SHOULD TRY TO BALANCE THAT IN CONGRESS?

OHIO, TEXAS, NOW MISSOURI, THIS WEEK, VOTED TO CHANGE ONE OF THE DISTRICT MAPS .

>> I THINK IT IS FAIR, PERSONALLY.

I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS KIND OF THING IN THE WAY THAT OHIO HAS BEEN SHAPED, WE ARE VERY MUCH A MIXED STATE.

THAT IS ALSO THE ARGUMENT THAT IS BEEN MADE WHEN FOLKS ARE TRIED TO PUSH OUT, REPRESENTATIVE AND SIKES.

I THINK THAT REASON YOU SHOULD BE FAIR.

ALTHOUGH THOSE STATES ARE LIBERAL LEANING, THEY ARE NOT HAVING THE SAME CONVERSATION .

WE ARE NOT LIKE THOSE STATES.

WE ARE NOT LIKE TEXAS, WE ARE NOT LIKE LAURA.

WE ARE OHIO.

AND I THINK THAT WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE EQUAL REPRESENTATION, FAIR REPRESENTATION IN CONGRESS.

>> THIS GOT SHUT DOWN LAST YEAR, PLENTY TO FIX THE SYSTEM.

OVERWHELMINGLY.

THE VOTERS , REPUBLICANS GO TOO FAR AND TRY TO GO DOWN TO TWO DEMOCRATIC DISTRICTS IN THE STATE.

THE VOTERS WON'T, WE INSIDERS WILL KNOW.

WE WILL CARRY MENTALLY.

SO, JUST COMPARE THIS, FOR A LITTLE BIT, TIAWAH.

GOVERNOR DeWINE HAS TALKED ABOUT COPYING WHAT IOWA DOES.

IOWA IS 4% AFRICAN-AMERICAN.

WE ARE 12%.

WE HAVE TO HAVE MINORITY MAJORITY DISTRICTS.

OKAY?

UNDER CURRENT COURT FINDINGS, HOWEVER, THE COURT FINDINGS ARE NOW IN DANGER OF BEING OVERTURNED.

SO, IF THAT DOES HAPPEN, THEN WE CAN BREAK.

I LOOK AT THE IOWA PLAN IN THE 90s, AND I THOUGHT THIS COULD WORK HERE.

BUT FOR THAT ISSUE .

SO, IF THAT GETS OVERTURNED, WE NEED SOMETHING EASILY UNDERSTOOD , THAT THE VOTERS CAN INTUITIVELY UNDERSTAND.

THE PROBLEM WITH WHAT THEY BROUGHT FORWARD LAST TIME, IT WAS TWO STEPS TO COMPLICATED.

>> IS ALWAYS GOING TO BECOME LOCATED.

THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS YOU HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT, COMPACTNESS, PARTISANSHIP, MINORITY DISTRICTS.

>> THE IOWA PLAN, I THINK, IS A LITTLE BIT LESS GOOFY FOR THAT.

THERE IS TALK THAT IF THE REPUBLICANS WAIT UNTIL NOVEMBER AND PASS THE BILL, THE REDISTRICTING MAP WITH SIMPLE MAJORITY, IT COULD END UP ON THE BALLOT.

IS THAT A LEGIT PLAN THAT DEMOCRATS MIGHT HAVE, PUTTING THIS ISSUE BACK ON THE BALLOT?

BECAUSE IF THEY COLLECT ENOUGH SIGNATURES, THEY CAN PUT A RECENTLY PASSED LAW ON THE BALLOT FOR THE VOTERS TO DECIDE.

>> I THINK IT'S A VIABLE STRATEGY, THE WAY I KIND OF VIEW IT IS THAT IT WOULD HAVE A HIGH PROBABILITY OF KEEPING EVERYTHING IN COURT.

THERE ARE TIMELINES THAT THESE THINGS HAVE TO MEET.

I FORGET EXACTLY WHAT THE DATE IS, BUT THERE IS FILE TO BE SENT OUT, A CANDIDATE FILING DEADLINE, A 90 DAY LAG TIME FOR THE BILL TO TAKE EFFECT.

SO THERE'S GOING TO BE A TIME CRUNCH, IF THEY PASS THIS IN NOVEMBER LIKE I THINK THEY WILL.

SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW, WOULD JUST KIND OF ADD TO THE LIKELIHOOD THAT IT'S GOING TO GET SETTLED IN COURT.

AND I THINK IT ALSO COULD BE A BARGAINING CHIP THAT DEMOCRATS COULD USE AS KIND OF A LAST- DITCH THING.

THERE'S A LOT OF FACTORS THAT GO INTO IT.

I THINK THAT IS A REALISTIC OPTION, AT LEAST AS A NEGOTIATING STRATEGY.

>> I THINK DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS SAY WE WILL STOP AT FOUR DISTRICTS, INSTEAD OF GOING FOR THREE , LIMITING DEMOCRATS TO THREE DISTRICTS, WE WILL STOP AT FOUR.

IF THERE IS A COMPROMISE, WILL THEY GO FOR IT?

ARE THEY NOT GOING TO COVER MICE?

>> I THINK THEY ARE NOT GOING TO COVER MICE.

I THINK WITH THEM COMING TOO EARLY AND ALSO BEING AGGRESSIVE AND KIND OF SAYING WHAT THEY WANT, I DON'T THINK THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE ANY CONVERSATION FOR THAT KIND OF COMPROMISE.

I THINK THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THEY WANT MORE SEATS.

I THINK THAT THAT IS A FAIR REQUEST, GIVEN THE MAKEUP AND ALSO THE WEIGHT OF THE STATE HAS VOTED IN THE PAST SEVERAL ELECTIONS, AS WELL.

>> AND REPUBLICANS WILL SEE THIS AS BEING DICTATED BY THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> YES, FOLLOWING HIS LEAD.

> >> COOLER TEMPERATURES PROVIDE REMINDERS TO GET FLU AND OTHER VACCINES.

BUT NOW THOSE SIMPLE SHOTS SPARK CONTROVERSY.

THE DEBATE OVER VACCINES HAS MOVED FROM THE FRINGE TO MAINSTREAM.

VACCINE SKEPTIC ROBERT F KENNEDY JUNIOR IS THE NATION'S TOP HEALTH OFFICIAL.

HE'S ROLLED BACK RECOMMENDATIONS ON THE COVID VACCINE AND REDUCED VACCINE RESEARCH FUNDS.

FLORIDA IS MOVING TO END ALL VACCINE MANDATES, INCLUDING ONES FOR SCHOOL KIDS.

HERE IN OHIO, GOVERNOR DEWINE AND THE STATE'S HEALTH DIRECTOR WILL NOT FOLLOW FLORIDA'S LEAD.

OHIO WILL STAY THE COURSE ON VACCINE RECOMMENDATIONS AND RULES.

ANDREW TOBIAS, WHAT A HUGE SURPRISE.

GOVERNOR DeWINE FOLLOWING THE SCIENCE AND NOT WANTING TO GET INVOLVED IN THIS.

IS THAT SURPRISING?

>> NO, HE WAS A PROPONENT OF THE CORONAVIRUS VACCINE .

ALSO, GENERALLY SPEAKING, SUPPORTING A VACCINATION REGIME THAT IS DECADES-OLD.

I'M SURE THAT MIKE DeWINE REMEMBERS THE POLIO EPIDEMIC .

IT'S REALLY NOT SURPRISING, ESPECIALLY WITH THE CONCERN HE HAS FOR KIDS, HIS APPRECIATION OF PUBLIC HEALTH IN HISTORY.

NOT AT ALL.

>> DOES THE WHITE HOUSE EVEN NEED TO BAN MANDATES?

THEY CAN OPT OUT.

THEY CAN OPT OUT OF A CHILDHOOD VACCINE FOR THEIR KIDS FOR REASONS OF CONSCIENCE.

WHATEVER THAT IS.

SO WE DON'T REALLY NEED TO HAVE A BAN ON MANDATES .

BECAUSE PARENTS CAN OPT OUT.

>> NO, WE DON'T NEED AN EXTRA BAND.

I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY I APPLAUD GOVERNOR DeWINE FOR FOLLOWING THE SCIENCE.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE POLITICIZING.

SCIENCE MATTERS, AND ALSO THE DATA SHOWS, AS WELL.

SO, I DON'T THINK WE NECESSARILY NEED TO GO INTO THAT, BECAUSE THE SCIENCE IS THERE.

>> SHOULD GOVERNMENT MANDATE THE PEOPLE GET VACCINES?

>> SO, LET ME GIVE YOU A NUANCED ANSWER.

AS MY EIGHTH-GRADE PHYSICS TEACHER TAUGHT ME, THE RIGHT TO SWING YOUR FIST INTO YOUR NEIGHBORS NOSE BEGINS.

IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A TETANUS SHOT, THAT'S FINE.

BECAUSE IF YOU STEP ON A RUSTY NAIL YOU WOULD DIE OF LOCKJAW.

THAT IS UP TO YOU.

BUT IF YOU REFUSE TO GET THE MEASLES, MUMPS, RUBELLA, THAT TYPE OF SHOT, NOW YOU ARE IMPACTING MY NOSE .

AND THAT IS THE KEY DIFFERENCE HERE.

NOT JUST HOW IT IMPACTS YOU, BUT HOW IT IMPACTS , AND EVEN, I HAVE TO SAY, TRUMP WAS BAFFLED WHEN FLORIDA SAID THEY ARE GOING TO STOP REQUIRING ALL VACCINES.

HE SAID I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT EITHER.

>> WHY IS THIS AN ISSUE, DO YOU THINK?

IS IT BECAUSE WE ARE SO FAR REMOVED FROM WHEN MEASLES WAS A REAL PROBLEM, WHEN POLIO WAS A REAL PROBLEM?

I DON'T REMEMBER POLIO.

I HEAR STORIES, BUT I NEVER LIVED THROUGH IT.

IS IT BECAUSE WE ARE SO FAR REMOVED FROM THESE DISEASES?

>> THAT'S A VERY VALID POINT.

I STILL HAVE THE SCAR ON MY RIGHT ARM FROM MY POLIO SHOT.

I HAVE CHILDHOOD FRIENDS WHO HAD A BAD LIMP OR A WITHERED ARM DUE TO POLIO.

BUT, AS TIME GOES ON, PEOPLE TEND TO FORGET ABOUT THE REALISM OF IT.

AT LEAST THEY ARE NOT COMING AFTER SEPTIC TANKS AND SEWAGE SYSTEMS YET , IF WE EVER COME BACK TO WHERE WE HAVE CHOLERA EPIDEMICS LIKE WE USED TO, THAT IS A 35% MORTALITY RATE.

>> IS THAT WHAT IT IS GOING TO TAKE TO BRING THIS DEBATE BACK TO REALITY?

OR WILL IT JUST, DO YOU THINK?

>> I DON'T THINK THIS IS GOING TO PASS.

I THINK RIGHT NOW, ONE THING I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE UNDERSCORE IS THE REASON WE ARE NOT HAVING A LOT OF THESE CONVERSATIONS BECAUSE FOLKS HAVE TAKEN THE VACCINE.

SO THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN MANDATED IN SOME CASE TO BE ABLE TO CONTROL THE SPREAD OF THEM AND ALSO MAKING SURE THAT OUR COLLEAGUES, OUR FRIENDS ARE NOT HIT WITH THIS KIND OF THINGS, IT IS A RESULT OF THE SCIENCE AND KNOWING THAT WE NEED THE VACCINES.

>> AS FAR AS THE READING LIST, THE BOOK THE DAWN OF EVERYTHING GOES INTO THE FACT THAT AS SOCIETIES BECOME MORE POLARIZED, THEY BEGIN TO DEFINE THEMSELVES AS BEING DIFFERENT THAN THEIR ADVERSARY.

AND JUST BECAUSE SOME DEMOCRATS MAY WANT, SAY OH, WE NEED TO COVER UP OUR MASKS, OH, WE CAN'T DO THAT.

WE CHOOSE, WE PICK WAYS TO DEFINE OURSELVES DIFFERENT WAYS.

>> LET'S GET TO OUR FINAL OFF THE RECORD PARTING SHOTS.

GENE KREBS, YOUR FIRST.

>> I'M CALLING FOR MY PARTY TO DO A RESET AND A DO OVER, AND LOOK FOR PLAN B. I'M HEARING WAY TOO MUCH FOR MY NEIGHBORS AND RELATIVES ABOUT HOW THEY ARE NOT HAPPY WITH RAMASWAMY BEING THE NOMINEE, ON A VARIETY OF REASONS.

YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME FOR ME TO GET INTO IT.

BUT WE NEED TO LOOK AROUND FOR A DIFFERENT CANDIDATE.

BECAUSE THE IDEA OF AMY ACTON BEING GOVERNOR JUST DRIVES ME NUTS.

>> STANLEY.

>> WE ARE IN STRANGE TIMES, AND I'VE REALLY BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS ALL WEEK.

I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE DON'T LET THAT GO.

I KNOW A LOT OF FOLKS DO LOOK LIKE ME ARE UNDER ATTACK RIGHT NOW.

AS A RESULT OF SOMETHING THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH US, FOR QUITE FRANKLY.

SO, I HAVE A CALL TO ACTION OF PEOPLE BEING GOOD.

I ALSO JUST DOING GOOD.

>> ANDREW.

>> SO, WE ASKED MIKE DeWINE THIS WEEK TO WEIGH IN ON IF DONALD TRUMP WERE TO SEND THE NATIONAL GUARD INTO OHIO CITIES TO FIGHT CRIME, WHETHER HE WOULD GO ALONG WITH IT.

HE GAVE A REALLY LONG ANSWER, I LISTENED TO IT THREE OR FOUR TIMES TO TRY TO DISCERN EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS HE WAS SAYING .

BUT HE BASICALLY SAID AS GOVERNOR HE WOULD NOT ORDER IT, BUT HE WAS REALLY INTENTIONAL ABOUT NOT COMMENTING ON WHATEVER DONALD TRUMP THEY ARE MAY NOT DO.

SO TAKE WITH THAT WHAT YOU WILL.

>> HE IS BEEN VERY CAREFUL ABOUT THAT STUFF.

I WAS ON VACATION LAST WEEK, WENT TO QUEBEC, AND I WAS VERY PLEASED.

NOBODY TALKS POLITICS UP THERE, WHICH WAS SO REFRESHING.

DID NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT AT ALL.

EXCEPT THEY WERE SELLING T- SHIRTS THAT SAYS CANADA IS NOT FOR SALE IN CASE YOU'RE WONDERING.

NOBODY WAS BUYING IT.

ANYWAY, THAT'S COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD FOR THIS WEEK CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK.

AND YOU CAN WATCH US ANYTIME ON OUR WEBSITE - WOSU.

ORG/COTR, YOUTUBE AND ALSO ON THE PBS VIDEO APP.

I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.