>> HELLO, EVERYONE, WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY," HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> MY CHILDREN GO TO SLEEP HUNGRY, THEY WAKE UP IN THE MORNING HUNGRY.

>> A MOTHER'S CRY, TIME IS RUNNING OUT IN GAZA AS MORE STARVE TO DEATH.

SAVE THE CHILDREN'S HUMANITARIAN DIRECTOR JOINS ME FROM THE ENCLAVE.

> >> AND THE ISRAELIS JOINING AN INTERNATIONAL CHORUS, I SPEAK TO THE LEADERS OF TWO HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS IN ISRAEL WHO BELIEVE THEIR GOVERNMENT IS COMMITTING GENOCIDE IN GAZA.

> >> PLUS -- >> IF YOU CARCERATE PEOPLE, INVOLUNTARILY INSTITUTIONALIZE THEM, IT DOESN'T HELP HOMELESSNESS.

>> THE HOMELESSNESS CRISIS.

WHAT CAN BE DONE TO HELP.

?

?

> >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

89 CHILDREN STARVED TO DEATH IN GAZA, SEVEN PEOPLE IN JUST THE PAST 24 HOURS.

THE LIMITED AIR DROPS, AND INCREASE IN AID TRUCKS, IS NOT NEARLY ENOUGH TO SLOW THIS DISASTER UNFOLDING BEFORE THE WHOLE WORLD.

THE EU IS WARNING THAT GAZA FACES FAMINE.

HERE ARE SOME OF THE TEXTS.

THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION HAS DETERIORATED TO UNPRECEDENTED AND UNSUSTAINABLE LEVEL, DRIVEN BY ONGOING BOMBARDMENTS, MILITARY OPERATIONS, DISPLACEMENT AND THE COLLAPSE OF SERVICES.

THIS HITS A PEAK WITH PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP WHO SAID STARVATION IS HAPPENING THERE, EVEN THOUGH PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU INSISTS IT ISN'T.

IN THE UK, THE PRIME MINISTER KEIR STARMER HAS PROMISED TO RECOGNIZE A PALESTINIAN STATE UNLESS ISRAEL AGREES TO A CEASEFIRE.

THIS RESUMPTION OF FULL- SCALE WAR IS NOW SEEN AS TOTAL FAILURE EVEN BY SOME IN ISRAEL.

THE IMAGES OF STARVING CHILDREN SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.

RACHEL CUMMINGS IS JOINING ME FROM CENTRAL GAZA.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET ME ASK YOU FIRST ABOUT YOUR AREA, WE SAW ISRAEL SEND IN GROUND AND AIR OPERATIONS FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE FIRST GROUND FORCES IN MORE THAN 21 MONTHS OF THIS WAR.

WHAT HAS THAT MEANT FOR THE PEOPLE YOU'RE TRYING TO SERVE THERE?

>> THANK YOU.

THE SITUATION ACROSS THE WHOLE OF GAZA IS CATASTROPHIC.

AND LAST WEEK AS YOU SAID, THERE WAS A GROUND INCURSION CLOSE TO WHERE WE ARE HERE, WHICH DISPLACED 50,000 TO 70,000 PEOPLE.

BUT IN GAZA, THERE IS NOWHERE FOR PEOPLE TO GO TO.

IT'S VERY SIGNIFICANT MOVEMENT OF POPULATION DISPLACEMENT, MOVING ALONG THE COAST, WHERE THERE'S LITERALLY NOWHERE TO GO.

GAZA, 12% OF THE LAND MASS IS LEFT FOR CIVILIANS, THE REST IS EITHER UNDER MILITARIZED ZONE OR EVACUATION NOTICES.

IT'S EXTRAORDINARILY OVERCROWDED.

BUT THE SITUATION HERE REMAINS UNTENABLE FOR THE POPULATION HERE.

THE MARKETS ARE EMPTY.

YESTERDAY, I WAS IN THE MARKET AND THERE'S NOTHING TO BUY.

AND THE OTHER DAY, TWO DAYS AGO I WAS IN A CLINIC AND WHAT I SAW WAS DEEPLY SHOCKING.

>> DESCRIBE WHAT YOU SAW THERE.

YOU'VE SAID --SAVE THE CHILDREN ARE REPORTING RECORD HIGHS, UNPRECEDENTED RATES OF MALNUTRITION IN GAZA.

THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN ADMITTED FOR TREATMENT THE FIRST TWO WEEKS OF JULY THEY SAY IS CLOSE TO THE TOTAL FOR THE WHOLE OF JUNE.

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING AND WHAT CAN YOU DESCRIBE IN TERMS OF THE LIMITED AMOUNT OF AID THAT'S STARTED COMING IN IN RESPONSE TO THE INTERNATIONAL FUROR.

>> THERE IS NO FOOD IN GAZA.

I WAS STRUCK WITH TWO THINGS, ONE, EVERY CHILD IN THAT CLINIC WAS MALNOURISHED.

AND IT WAS NEARLY SILENT, VERY UNUSUAL FOR A CLINIC FULL OF CHILDREN.

BUT CHILDREN THIS SICK DON'T CRY.

I SPOKE TO MY TEAM, WHO ARE TREATING CHILDREN WHO ARE MALNOURISHED AND HONESTLY THEY WERE CRYING, OVERWHELMED, DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.

THEY KNOW THE CHILDREN THEY'RE TREATING TODAY, MODERATELY TO ACUTELY MALNOURISHED WILL COME BACK NEXT WEEK WITH SEVERE ACUTE MALNUTRITION AND THE WEEK AFTER WORSE.

THEY'RE ON A DOWNWARD TRAJECTORY IN OUTCOMES AND THE MALNUTRITION TREATMENT --BECAUSE CHILDREN CAN'T LIVE OR SURVIVE WITH THE PEANUT PASTE.

THEY NEED FOOD AND DIET DIVERSITY WHICH THEY DON'T HAVE.

IT'S A SIGNIFICANT SHIFT WE'RE SEEING.

I SAID ABOUT TWO WEEKS AGO WE REACHED A TIPPING POINT IN GAZA.

AND WE'RE NOW SEEING IN OUR CLINIC, REPRESENTED IN ALL OF THE DATA FROM ALL THE PARTNERS ACROSS GAZA, WE'RE NOW SEEING THIS DOUBLING OF THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN PRESENTING WHO ARE MALNOURISHED.

AND THE PROPORTION OF CHILDREN IN THE POPULATION HAS GONE FROM 4.

4% IN MAY TO 16.

5% IN JULY, THE FIRST TWO WEEKS OF JULY.

AND ALSO VERY CONCERNING IS THAT PREGNANT WOMEN AND BREASTFEEDING WOMEN, THAT RATE SITS AT 40%.

4 OUT OF 10 PREGNANT AND BREASTFEEDING WOMEN ARE THEMSELVES MALNOURISHED.

DEEPLY CONCERNING TRAJECTORY.

AND THIS EXPONENTIAL RISE WE'RE SEEING IN THE NUMBERS AND RATES OF MALNUTRITION REQUIRES SIGNIFICANT INTERVENTION AT SCALE TO BE ABLE TO TURN THE TRAJECTORY AND SAVE THE CHILDREN HERE.

>> RACHEL CUMMINGS, YOU'VE BEEN THERE FOR A WHILE.

AND YOU HAVE PROBABLY SEEN OR AT LEAST HEARD OF THE AIR DROPS THAT STARTED OVER THE WEEKEND.

AND SOME MORE I GUESS TRUCKS GOING IN.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE RESULT OF THE AIR DROPS?

DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH HAS COME?

WHETHER THE RIGHT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ACCESS IT?

DO YOU KNOW --IS IT ENOUGH?

>> IT'S WHOLLY INADEQUATE AND INEFFECTIVE AT BEST.

WHAT IT IS IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.

I SAW VISIBLY TODAY FROM THE WINDOW FOUR AIR DROPS ACROSS GAZA, AND YOU MAY HEAR THE DRONE CIRCLING THIS EVENING.

WHAT WE FOUND IN THE LAST TWO OR THREE DAYS FOLLOWING THE AIR DROPS, THEY PUT DRONES UP TO WATCH, I GUESS, WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE GROUND.

UNFORTUNATELY TODAY WE ALSO HEARD, UNCONFIRMED, THREE PEOPLE WERE KILLED BY A DROP LANDING IN THEIR SHELTER.

JUST TODAY WHEN I SAW THE AIR DROPS COMING, IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY.

WHAT YOU HEAR NOW IS A LOUD, HEAVY, HEAVY PLANE, WHICH SOUNDS QUITE DIFFERENT TO THE JETS WE HAVE CONSTANTLY.

YOU HEAR THE HEAVY, HEAVY PLANE CARRYING SUPPLIES.

FIRST THING YOU HEAR AFTER THAT IS THE CHILDREN, RUNNING AND CRYING ALONG THE STREET.

I SAW THAT TODAY.

AND THEN OF COURSE YOU LOOK UP AND YOU CAN SEE THE PARACHUTES, 400, 500 KILOGRAMS, HALF A TON OF WEIGHT IS COMING DOWN.

I SAW TODAY WITH MY OWN EYES, TWO PARACHUTES BECAME ENTWINED AND ONE JUST DIDN'T OPEN, DROPPED STRAIGHT TO THE GROUND.

THEY'RE DANGEROUS.

ARE PEOPLE RECEIVING THE AID THEY NEED TO, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

THEY'RE DROPPING AID WITHOUT WARNING, PEOPLE WILL RUN, OF COURSE, BECAUSE THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY DESPERATE, PEOPLE ARE LITERALLY STARVING IN GAZA, SO THEY WILL TAKE ANY OPPORTUNITY THEY CAN TO FIND FOOD TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES.

THAT OF COURSE DOESN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT ANY OF THE VULNERABLE POPULATION.

PREGNANT WOMEN, ELDERLY, DISABLED, CHILDREN WHO MANAGE HOUSEHOLDS, ALL OF THESE NEED FOOD ASSISTANCE AND NEED HUMANITARIAN SUPPORT BUT OF COURSE THEY'RE NOT THE PEOPLE WHO WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE IT TO THE AID DROPS.

THEN IN TERMS OF THE SUPPLIES, FOR THE LAST THREE, MAYBE FOUR DAYS, THE U. N. HAS BEEN TRYING TO BRING IN ABOUT 100 TRUCKS A DAY OF GENERALLY FOOD SUPPLIES AND ALSO SOME MEDICINES AND POTENTIALLY HYGIENE SUPPLIES WHICH ARE ALL ESSENTIAL TO SUSTAIN LIFE AND ALL ARE DEPLETED IN THE MARKETS IN GAZA.

WHATEVER THEY'RE BRINGING IN IS NOT GOING TO TOUCH THE SIDES UNFORTUNATELY IN TERMS OF THE STARVATION.

AND OF COURSE THE DISEASE OUTBREAKS WE'RE SEEING.

WE'VE BEEN SEEING THIS FOR MONTHS.

>> CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION?

BECAUSE THE ISRAELI SIDE KEEPS SAYING IT'S BASICALLY ON YOU ALL, YOU SHOULD BE DELIVERING THE TRUCKS WHICH APPARENTLY THEY SAY ARE WAITED LOADED WITH AID TO BE DELIVERED.

WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER TO THAT?

IT'S --WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THESE TRUCKS?

>> THE ENVIRONMENT OF GAZA IS A EXTREMELY COMPLEX AND CHALLENGING ENVIRONMENT TO MOVE SUPPLIES AROUND.

SO YOU HAVE BROKEN INFRASTRUCTURE, THE ROADS HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY SMASHED.

TRUCKS' LITERALLY ABILITY TO MOVE ALONG AVERY HAMPERED.

BUT YOU'RE ALSO TRYING TO SUPPORT A POPULATION WHO ARE STARVING, HUNGRY AND DESPERATE TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES.

YOU'LL HAVE SEEN THE PICTURES OF PEOPLE JUMPING ON TRUCKS, TRYING TO STOP THEM AND GET A BAG OF FLOUR TO TAKE HOME TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES.

OF COURSE YOU ALSO HAVE ORGANIZED CRIME, ORGANIZED CRIMINALITY.

THERE'S NO LAW AND ORDER IN GAZA.

THAT'S BEEN COMPLETELY DISMANTLED.

YOU HAVE MULTIPLE INFLUENCING PIECES.

PUT THAT TOGETHER AND IT BECOMES NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO MOVE SUPPLIES.

BUT OF COURSE IF YOU HAVE SUCH LIMITED SUPPLIES COMING INTO GAZA, BETWEEN JANUARY AND MARCH IN THE LAST STOP IN HOSTILITIES, 600 TRUCKS WERE COMING INTO GAZA WITH HUMANITARIAN AND COMMERCIAL SUPPLIES, AND IT WAS ENOUGH TO MEET THE BASIC NEEDS OF MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN GAZA.

SINCE THE 2nd OF MARCH, THERE'S BEEN NO HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES IN UNTIL THE TRICKLE THAT STARTED END OF MAY.

WE'VE HAD A SUSTAINED SIEGE OF SUPPLIES COMING INTO GAZA.

NOTHING HAS ENTERED, SO OF COURSE NOW WE'RE SEEING THE RESULTS OF THAT, INCREASED RATES OF MALNUTRITION, DIARRHEA, AND DESPERATION OF PEOPLE WHO NEED TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES.

>> OF COURSE ALL THE U. N. AGENCIES ARE WARNING THAT TIME IS RUNNING OUT TO MOUNT A FULL-SCALE HUMANITARIAN RESPONSE.

RACHEL CUMMINGS, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US AND TELLING US WHAT IS GOING ON INSIDE AS WE CANNOT GET IN TO REPORT THIS.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

AMID THE STARVATION CRISIS IN GAZA AND 60,000 PEOPLE KILLED THERE, A FORMER PRIME MINISTER SAYS ISRAEL IS BECOMING A GLOBAL PAR AIA AND CALLING FOR MASSIVE, NONVIOLENT, CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE UNTIL NETANYAHU IS OUSTED.

AND IN TWO SEPARATE REPORTS, TWO LEADING HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS SAY THE GOVERNMENT IS COMMITTING GENOCIDE IN GAZA.

THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS ISSUED FURIOUS DENIALS.

LET'S BRING IN THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND CEO OF HUMAN RIGHTS ISRAEL WHO JOIN FROM TEL AVIV.

THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED.

NO OTHER ISRAELI ORGANIZATION HAS TAKEN THIS STEP DESPITE MOUNTING USE OF THIS WORD AND ACCUSATIONS OF THIS CRIME AGAINST THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT.

ASK YOU FIRST, YULLY.

IT'S BEEN A LEADING CIVIL RIGHTS ORGANIZATION FOR DECADES IN YOUR COUNTRY.

SINCE YOU ISSUED THIS REPORT, WHAT IS THE RESPONSE INSIDE ISRAEL, AND THE JEWISH POPULATION WORLDWIDE?

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, IN OUR REPORT, WHAT WE TRIED TO EXPLAIN IS EXACTLY THE HOW OF WHAT WE JUST HEARD WITH YOUR PREVIOUS GUEST.

HOW DID WE GET TO WHERE WE ARE?

HOW DOES THIS ISRAELI SYSTEM WORK?

AND WHAT WE TRIED TO WRITE ABOUT, TO INVESTIGATE AND ANALYZE, IS THE POLICY BEHIND IT.

AND THAT GOES ALSO TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT HOW ISRAELIS AND ISRAELI SOCIETY REACT TO IT.

BECAUSE THIS IS PART AND PARCEL OF THE FACT THAT GENOCIDE IS BEING COMMITTED NOW BY THIS REGIME.

NO GENOCIDE IN HISTORY HAPPENED WITHOUT THE SUPPORT EITHER BY TAKING PART OR SUPPORTING IT FROM AFAR OR JUST TURNING A BLIND EYE OF THE PEOPLE OF THE GROUP OF THE PERPETRATORS.

UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS HEARTBREAKING FOR ME AS AN ISRAELI, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT TAKES PLACE NOW IN ISRAEL.

ASKED ABOUT THE REACTION TO OUR REPORTS, I WOULD SAY THAT 99% OF ISRAELIS DIDN'T HEAR ABOUT OUR REPORT.

BECAUSE PART OF WHAT THE ISRAELI MEDIA IS DOING IS COMPLETELY DENYING ISRAELI PUBLIC FROM KNOWING WHAT IS GOING ON.

FIRST OF ALL.

THEN THERE IS THE OVERALL SENTIMENT, SOMETHING THAT BECAME ALMOST NORMAL, THE INCITEMENT FOR GENOCIDE.

I THINK IT IS DEVASTATING AS AN ISRAELI BUT A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE FOR HOW DISCONNECTED A PEOPLE THAT CONDUCT GENOCIDE CAN BE FROM WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DO.

>> BEFORE I GET INTO THE DETAILS OF YOUR ALLEGATIONS IN THIS LONG REPORT, 79 PAGES, I WANT TO ASK GUY FROM THE PHYSICIAN FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ISRAELI CHAPTER.

ISRAEL IS A NATION BORN OUT OF GENOCIDE, THE HOLOCAUST.

THIS IS AN UNPRECEDENTED INTERNAL ISRAELI ACCUSATION AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT OF COMMITTING SIMILAR CRIMES NOW IN GAZA.

AGAIN, WHAT LED YOU AT THIS TIME TO DECIDE THAT IT WAS RIGHT TO USE THIS WORD, THIS LEGAL TERM, IN TERMS OF WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW?

WHAT WAS THE CRITERIA FOR YOU?

>> RIGHT.

FIRST OF ALL, AS YULI SAID, WE'RE DOING IT WITH A HEAVY HEART BECAUSE OF OUR HISTORY.

MY PERSONAL FAMILY HISTORY AND MY PEOPLE'S HISTORY.

IT'S NOT AN EASY MOMENT TO BE TO ACCUSE MY OWN SOCIETY AND COMMUNITY IN COMMITTING GENOCIDE.

AND FOR US, WE ARE STICKING TO THE INTERNATIONAL LAW, DEFINITION ACCORDING TO THE GENOCIDE CONVENTION THAT ISRAEL SIGNED ON.

WE'RE LOOKING AT THE COMMUNITY OF INFORMATION WE'RE GATHERING FROM THE GROUND ALMOST TWO YEARS.

WE'VE BEEN WORKING EVERY DAY IN EMERGENCY MODE FOR THE PAST ALMOST TWO YEARS TO COLLECT THE DATA, TO SPEAK WITH OUR COLLEAGUES IN THE GAZAN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

AND WE'RE LOOKING AT THE SYSTEMATIC ATTACK ON THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM AND ALL LIFE SUSTAINING SYSTEMS.

ATTACK AFTER ATTACK, HOSPITAL AFTER HOSPITAL, BLOCKING OFF WATER, BLOCKING OFF FOOD, DESTRUCTION OF INFRASTRUCTURE THAT'S NEEDED FOR PEOPLE TO SURVIVE, THAT'S WHEN WE GET TO THE CONCLUSION THAT A GENOCIDE IS BEING COMMITTED, UNFORTUNATELY.

>> YOUR ORGANIZATION FOCUSES A LOT ON THE MEDICAL, THE DOCTORS IN THE HOSPITALS THAT WE'VE SEEN AND REPORTED.

I UNDERSTAND YOU'RE USING THAT SET OF INFORMATION.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE U. N. CONVENTION.

AND INDEED THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE WAS DEFINED IN 1948 BY THE UNITED NATIONS AS THE INTENT TO DESTROY IN WHOLE OR IN PART A NATIONAL, ETHICAL, RACIAL OR RELIGIOUS GROUP AS SUCH.

AND BASED ON THAT DEFINITION, YOU REACHED THE CONCLUSION THAT ISRAEL IS TAKING COORDINATED, DELIBERATE ACTION TO DESTROY PALESTINIAN SOCIETY IN THE GAZA STRIP.

AS YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I DO, THE ISSUE WOULD BE INTENT.

OBVIOUSLY ISRAEL DENIES ANY INTENT TO DO THAT, AND CONSISTENTLY DENIES IT'S TARGETING DELIBERATELY CIVILIANS, THAT IT IS GOING AFTER HAMAS.

SO YOU MUST HAVE BUILT A CASE AROUND INTENT, NOT JUST WHAT YOU'RE OBSERVING.

IS THAT CORRECT?

AM I CORRECT?

>> I'LL START.

I'LL SAY THAT YOU JUST READ THE LEGAL DEFINITION, WHICH IS IMPORTANT, BUT FIRST OF ALL, LET'S ALL REMEMBER THAT GENOCIDE HAPPENED WAY BEFORE 1948.

THE LEGAL DEFINITION DIDN'T CREATE THE PHENOMENA, THE SOCIAL AND POLITICAL PHENOMENA OF ATTACKING ANOTHER GROUP IN ORDER TO DESTROY IT.

WHEN WE'RE DOING THIS LEGAL ANALYSIS, WHICH IS SUPER IMPORTANT BECAUSE PERPETRATORS SHOULD BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE, THAT IS NOT WHAT HELPS PEOPLE ON THE GROUND TODAY.

AND THIS CANNOT BE ONLY THEORETICAL DESTRUCTION.

LET'S TALK ABOUT INTENT AS WE SEE IT, PEOPLE WITH EYES AND EARS AND MIND TO THINK.

WHEN THE TOP LEADERSHIP OF ISRAEL STANDS IN THE FIRST DAYS OF THESE ATTACK, TALKING ABOUT THE PRIME MINISTER, THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE, EVEN THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, AND TELLING US WHAT IS THE GOAL OF THIS ATTACK.

THEY TELLING US, DESTROY EVERYBODY.

THEY'RE TELLING US WE'RE FIGHTING HUMAN ANIMALS AND WE'LL TREAT THEM AS SUCH.

AND I QUOTE.

THEY SAY IT'S AN ENTIRE NATION THERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CRIMES OF HAMAS ON OCTOBER 7th.

WHEN YOU HEAR THAT, THEN LOOK AT THE RESULTS AND OUTCOMES WHICH WE JUST HEARD ABOUT, AND LISTEN TO THE COMMANDERS AND SOLDIERS ON THE GROUND.

TAKE ALL OF THIS INTO ACCOUNT, TOGETHER WITH THE FACT THAT EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW IT BEFORE, WHICH I HAVE A REALLY HARD TIME TO BELIEVE, ONCE THEY SAW THE OUTCOME OF THEIR STATEMENTS, THEY FOR SURE UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS TO SEND A WHOLE ARMY TO ATTACK CIVILIANS IN ANOTHER AREA AND INSTRUCTING THEM TO DESTROY THE WHOLE POPULATION, TELLING THEM THERE ARE NO CIVILIAN PEOPLE THERE.

THAT'S EXACTLY COMES BACK TO THE INTENTION OF GENOCIDE.

BECAUSE GENOCIDE IS ABOUT ATTACKING PEOPLE BEING ATTACKED ONLY BECAUSE THEY'RE PART OF A GROUP.

NOT BECAUSE WHAT THEY DID PERSONALLY, WHAT THEY THINK, WHO THEY ARE.

THE SECOND THING, THEY HAVE NO WAY TO PROTECT THEMSELVES.

I WILL JUST SAY ISRAEL TALKING ABOUT THE WAR WITH HAMAS, BUT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS GENOCIDE.

IT'S A WAR THAT ISRAEL STARTED IN ATTACKING THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF THE GAZA STRIP.

AND THAT WAS VERY CLEAR FROM THEIR STATEMENTS FROM THE FIRST DAY, AND UNTIL TODAY.

>> CAN I ASK YOU HERE BECAUSE I'M GOING TO GO THROUGH SOME OF THE QUOTES YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT AND WE ALL HEARD THAT LED A LOT IN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO CRITICIZE ISRAELI LEADERS FOR MAKING THESE COMMENTS AT THE BEGINNING AND STILL.

YOU SAID ISRAEL STARTED THIS, THEY'LL SAY WE DIDN'T, HAMAS STARTED IT OCTOBER 7th.

I WANT TO ASK YOU BOTH WHETHER YOU'RE PREPARED TO ALSO SAY THAT HAMAS SHOWED GENOCIDAL INTENT AND COMMITTED A GENOCIDE IF THEY COULD HAVE DONE MORE WHAT THEY DID TARGETING ETHNICAL, RELIGIOUS, NATIONAL GROUP ON OCTOBER 7th.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS BUT IT'S A QUESTION OTHER LAWYERS ARE ASKING.

>> I THINK FIRST OF ALL, ANALYZING WHAT HAMAS HAS DONE IS VERY IMPORTANT AND THE CRIMES BY HAMAS, WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY DURING THIS ATTACK IS IMPORTANT TO DO.

BUT IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT ACCORDING TO INTERNATIONAL LAW, HUMANITARIAN LAW, THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN WHAT ONE PARTY DOES TO WHAT THE OTHER PARTY DOES.

WHATEVER CRIMES HAMAS HAVE DONE, AND THEY'VE DONE CRIMES, HORRIBLE CRIMES, OCTOBER 7th.

IT DOESN'T EXCUSE OR JUSTIFY CRIMES DONE AFTERWARD BY ISRAEL IN THEIR ATTACK.

I ALSO WANT TO ADDRESS THE QUESTION OF INTENT IF I MAY.

GENOCIDE CONVENTION ADDRESSES NOT ONLY MASS KILLINGS AND BODILY HARM, BUT ARTICLE 2C DEALS WITH THE SYSTEMATIC INFRASTRUCTURE ATTACK ON A PEOPLE IN ORDER TO DESTROY THAT PEOPLE.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE FOCUSING ON, THE ATTACK ON HEALTH CARE AND HEALTH SUSTAINING INFRASTRUCTURE.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ATTACK ON HEALTH CARE, YOU SEE A PATTERN OF CONDUCT.

ATTACK AFTER ATTACK.

OCTOBER 13, FIVE DAYS AFTER THE ATTACK, ISRAEL ISSUED 22 EVACUATION ORDERS FOR 22 HOSPITALS IN THE GAZA CITY AND NORTHERN DISTRICT.

MORE THAN 1 MILLION CIVILIANS WERE IN THE AREA AT THAT TIME.

HOW ARE THEY --THEY WILL BE ABLE TO SURVIVE IF ALL THEIR HOSPITALS ARE EVACUATED?

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PATIENTS AND STAFF MEMBERS?

THESE ARE NOT COINCIDENTAL, IT'S A POLICY, A DECISION MADE, AND THE RESULTS ARE VERY CLEAR.

WHEN WE LOOK AT THESE ATTACKS, THESE POLICIES, ONE AFTER THE OTHER FOR 22 MONTHS, DESTROYING HOSPITAL AFTER HOSPITAL, KILLING MORE THAN 1,500 DOCTORS AND MEDICAL WORKERS, DETAINING MORE THAN 300.

THESE ARE THE POLICIES THAT WE UNFORTUNATELY SEE THE RESULTS ON THE GROUND.

>> I'LL ASK BECAUSE I HAVE TO, BECAUSE ISRAEL SAYS HAMAS INHABITS THE HOSPITALS, UNDERNEATH, GUN POSITIONS, COMMAND CENTERS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> MAYBE I'LL ASK YOU BACK.

HAVE YOU SEEN THE EVIDENCE?

>> I HAVE NOT BEEN THERE.

THIS IS ANOTHER HUGE PROBLEM.

IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM.

WE, INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS, FULLY EQUIPPED TO BE ABLE TO SEE AND ANALYZE AND REPORT WHAT'S GOING ON AND SPENT OUR WHOLE CAREER DOING IT HAVE NOT BEEN ALLOWED IN THERE.

I'M JUST ASKING YOU TO RESPOND TO THEIR RESPONSE.

AND WHAT THE U. S. AND BRITS SAY AND EUROPEANS HAVE SAID THROUGHOUT.

IT'S THEIR DEFENSE.

I WANT TO HEAR GUY.

>> THE FACT IS, THE EVIDENCE THAT THEY PRESENTED IS VERY THIN.

ISRAEL ATTACKED 33 OF THE 36 MEDICAL FACILITIES IN GAZA.

FOR EACH AND EVERY OF THESE FACILITIES THEY CLAIMED THAT HAMAS HAS COMMAND CENTER WITHIN THE PREMISES OF THESE HOSPITALS.

APART FROM TWO.

AND LATER ON, ISRAEL TOOK CONTROL OF THESE ENTIRE FACILITIES, WING BY WING, DEPARTMENT BY DEPARTMENT.

THEY HAD FULL CONTROL OVER THE ENTIRE PREMISES OF THESE INSTITUTIONS, STILL DID NOT PRESENT THE EVIDENCE.

WE CAN ASSUME IF ISRAEL HAD THE EVIDENCE OF COMMAND CENTERS IN EACH AND EVERY OF THESE HOSPITALS THEY WOULD PRESENT IT TO THE WORLD BECAUSE OF COURSE THEY WOULD WANT TO SHOW THEY ACT ACCORDING TO THIS EVIDENCE.

UNFORTUNATELY THERE IS NO EVIDENCE, AND THE PROPORTIONALITY IS ANOTHER THING.

YOU CANNOT DESTROY AN ENTIRE SYSTEM OF HEALTH CARE PROVIDING FOR MORE THAN 2 MILLION PEOPLE WITH THESE VERY VAGUE AND GENERAL ACCUSATIONS.

>> AND WE SEE THE RESULT NOW.

PEOPLE ARE ESSENTIALLY WASTING AWAY, CAN'T GET MEDICINE AND CARE AND ARE STARVING.

YULI, I WANT TO ASK YOU, SOME CRITICS SAID USING THAT PARTICULAR LEGAL TERM, A STEP ABOVE THE GENERAL ACCUSATION OF WAR CRIMES, WHICH EVEN SOME ISRAELIS LIKE THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER, THE FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER AND OTHERS USE THE WORD "WAR CRIMES" BUT HAVEN'T GONE TO THE WORD "GENOCIDE. "

BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RESULT WILL BE?

WILL ISRAEL, WILL THE GOVERNMENT TAKE YOUR REPORT AND SAY WE'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS?

OR WILL THEY GO INTO A GREATER DEFENSIVE CROUCH AND, I DON'T KNOW, FIGHT BACK HARDER?

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WHAT IS YOUR ULTIMATE GOAL?

>> OUR ULTIMATE GOAL IS TO SAVE LIFE AND PROTECT HUMAN RIGHTS.

NO, I DON'T THINK THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SHOWED ANY SIGN THEY'RE ABOUT TO DO IT.

THEY DON'T CARE WHAT WE SAY, YOU SAY, THE INTERNATIONAL MEDIA SAY.

THEY'VE PROVEN THAT.

THEY'RE BECOMING MORE AND MORE DELUSIONAL.

JUST ASKED GUY ABOUT THE MEDICAL SYSTEM.

THEY ARE ALSO CLAIMING THERE'S NO STARVATION IN GAZA, RIGHT?

I WOULDN'T COUNT ON THEM NOT TO STOP IT BY THEMSELVES, NOT TO UNDERSTAND THE DEPTHS OF THIS DISASTER THEY'RE BRINGING UPON THIS LAND.

NOT ONLY BECAUSE DOZENS OF THOUSANDS GOT KILLED AND STARVED AND ARE GETTING KILLED, BUT BECAUSE WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS TAKING OUT THE MOST BASIC SENSE AND RULES OF NORMS OF HUMANITY OUT OF THIS SPACE.

THAT IS WHAT GENOCIDE IS ABOUT.

MARKING A GROUP OF PEOPLE AS NONHUMANS.

STRIP THEM FROM THEIR HUMANITY AND RIGHTS, THEN YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU CAN DO THEM.

THEN, JUST TO SAY, THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THAT.

ISRAEL CAN SAY WHATEVER THEY WANT, USE WHATEVER EXCUSE, WHETHER HAMAS, OCTOBER 7th, WHATEVER.

OCTOBER 7 WAS REAL, WE ALL, FOR ALL OF US IT WAS PROBABLY THE SCARIEST DAYS OF MOST ISRAELIS I KNOW, INCLUDING ME.

THAT DOESN'T ALLOW YOU TO START A WAR AGAINST AN ENTIRE PEOPLE IN ORDER TO DESTROY THEM AND ELIMINATE THEM.

SO IN THAT SENSE, NO, I DON'T THINK ISRAEL GOVERNMENT WILL DO ANYTHING.

I DO HOPE THAT LEADERS OF THE WORLD, WHICH NOT FOR THE FIRST TIME SEE GENOCIDE LIVE, KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

WE ARE ALL VERY MUCH AWARE OF WHAT TAKES PLACE ON THE GROUND.

AND I AGREE ONCE JOURNALISTS GO IN WILL PROBABLY SEE REALITY MUCH WORSE THAN ANYTHING WE KNOW.

BUT IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME LEADERS OF THE WORLD ALLOW A REGIME TO ATTACK PEOPLE THAT WAY, CONDUCT GENOCIDE.

THEY'RE EITHER STANDING BY AND LET IT HAPPEN OR KEEP COOPERATING WITH IT AND ENABLING THIS HORROR TO TAKE PLACE.

SO IN THAT SENSE, I THINK IT'S NOT ONLY AN ISSUE OF THE VICTIMS, PALESTINIANS, OR THE ISRAELIS AS THE PERPETRATORS, GENOCIDE IS AN ISSUE THAT EVERY HUMAN BEING SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT, AND STAND AGAINST.

AND PEOPLE OF THE WORLD NEED TO COMMAND FROM THEIR LEADERS TO DO WHATEVER THEY CAN IN ORDER TO STOP THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT FROM KEEP DOING THAT.

>> CAN I ASK YOU BOTH, BECAUSE PART OF THE BIG REPORT YOU'VE PUT OUT, I KNOW THEY'RE SEPARATE REPORTS BUT NONETHELESS, YOU'VE USED --YOU MENTIONED IT EARLIER ON IN THE INTERVIEW -- SEVERAL QUOTES FROM ISRAELI LEADERS.

PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU ABOUT -- A BIBLICAL AND HISTORICAL FIGHT BACK AFTER AN ATTACK.

NOW THEY SAY PART OF THAT QUOTE IS ON THE YAD VASHEM MONUMENT, IT'S ISRAELI, YOU FIGHT BACK WHEN ATTACKED.

THAT'S ONE RESPONSE.

WHEN PRESIDENT HERZOG SAID IN OCTOBER IT'S AN ENTIRE NATION THAT'S RESPONSIBLE, IT'S NOT TRUE ABOUT THE RHETORIC OF CIVILIANS NOT AWARE AND NOT INVOLVED, IT'S ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE.

AND WE WILL FIGHT UNTIL WE BREAK THEIR BACKBONE.

THEN WE'VE TOLD IN THE SAME APPEARANCE HE GOES ON TO SAY THERE'S NO EXCUSE TO MURDERING INNOCENT CIVILIANS IN ANY CONTEXT.

ALSO THE DEFENSE MINISTER IN THE BEGINNING CALLING FOR A COMPLETE SIEGE, NO FOOD, NO WATER, NO ELECTRICITY, SAYING WE'RE FIGHTING HUMAN ANIMALS.

HIS DEFENDERS SAY HE WAS REFERRING TO HAMAS, NOT ALL PEOPLE OF GAZA.

DEPUTY --FROM ANOTHER PARTY POSTED THAT ISRAELIS HAD A ONE COMMON GOAL, ERASING THE GAZA STRIP FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

THERE ARE A LOT OF HARD COMMENTS MADE BY YOUR LEADERS TO LEAD YOU TO MAKE CERTAIN CONCLUSIONS.

BUT WHAT DO YOU SAY WHEN THEY SAY NO, THIS WAS THE CONTEXT, THIS IS WHAT WE SAID ALSO?

>> FIRST, LEADERS SHOULD TAKE RESPONSIBLE.

OUR LEADERS DEFINITELY DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT.

NOT WHEN IT CONCERNS THEIR OWN ISRAELI, JEWISH CITIZENS LEFT TO DIE IN THE HANDS OF HAMAS IN CAPTIVITY, AND FOR SURE NOT WHEN IT HAS TO DO WITH THE PALESTINIANS' LIVES.

I'M SORRY, I CAN'T ACCEPT IT.

I DIDN'T MEAN THAT?

WELL, YOU'RE PRIME MINISTER.

IF YOU REALIZED YOU DID SOMETHING THAT TURNED, YOU SAID SOMETHING THAT TURNED INTO A GENOCIDE, INTO MASS KILLING AND DESTRUCTION THAT GOES ON AND ON ALMOST TWO YEARS NOW, YOU HAD ENOUGH OPPORTUNITIES TO STOP IT.

AND AS WE SIT NOW HERE AND TALK, BULLDOZERS ARE RUSHING THROUGH WHATEVER ARE LEFT OF PALESTINIAN CITIES IN GAZA IN ORDER JUST TO RUIN IT.

AS GUY SAID BEFORE, TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE WILL BE NO WAY TO SUSTAIN LIFE THERE.

THAT'S WHAT THE ISRAELI ARMY IS DOING NOW JUST AS IT WAS ORDERED BY STATEMENTS OF OFFICIALS YOU JUST READ, AND --IF ANYONE IS QUESTIONING -- NO, THEY DIDN'T STOP WITH THIS INCITEMENT.

THE ISRAELI PUBLIC DISCOURSE, INCLUDING OUR POLITICIANS BUT NOT ONLY, IS FULL OF INCITEMENT TO GENOCIDE, A CLEAR INCITEMENT TO GENOCIDE IS MOSTLY IS DIRECTED TOWARDS GAZA BUT WE HAVE TO SAY HERE, ALSO IN OUR REPORT, WE ARE ALSO HERE TO WARN ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF GENOCIDE WILL NOT STAY CONFINED TO GAZA BECAUSE THE SAME REGIME WITH THE SAME ARMY, COMMANDERS AND SOMETIMES THE SAME PRACTICES EVEN IN THE LOWER SCALE ARE TAKING PLACE IN THE WEST BANK.

AND RIGHT NOW THERE'S NO MECHANISM, LOCAL OR INTERNATIONAL, THAT IS WORKING TO STOP OR ABLE OR WANT TO STOP ISRAEL FROM DOING IT.

AND THE PALESTINIANS EVERYWHERE UNDER ISRAELI CONTROL IS NOW LEFT COMPLETELY UNPROTECTED.

>> GUY -- CAN I JUST SAY --SORRY.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THIS, WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

BUT IN THE REPORT YOU BOTH SAY THE OCTOBER 7th HAMAS ATTACK LED TO PROFOUND SOCIAL AND POLITICAL CHANGES IN ISRAELI SOCIETY.

REFLECT ON THAT.

AND PERSONAL QUESTION TO YOU, OF THE TOLL IT'S TAKEN TO COLLECT THIS AND REPORT IT, KNOWING YOUR NATION WILL NOT THANK YOU FOR THIS.

GUY.

>> RIGHT.

WHEN WE LOOK AT THE ATTACK ON GAZA, IT HASN'T STARTED OCTOBER 7, WE LOOK MORE TO THE PAST AND SEE DEMONIZATION OF PALESTINIANS IS PART OF ISRAELI CULTURE AND POLITICS FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

AND DEFINITELY OCTOBER 7 ATTACK WITH THE TRAUMA IT AROUSED IN ISRAELI SOCIETY WAS A TRIGGER, A VERY DANGEROUS TRIGGER FOR PEOPLE TO JUST CONSIDER THE OTHER AS LESS HUMAN THAN THEY ARE.

IT CAUSED PEOPLE TO NOT WANT TO ENGAGE, NOT WANT TO GET THE INFORMATION.

THAT IS WHAT OUR TWO ORGANIZATIONS ARE STRUGGLING WITH.

WE ARE COLLECTING THE DATA, SPEAKING IN HEBREW WITH PEOPLE HERE, FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES.

WE WANT THEM TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON.

DENIAL IS WHAT ALLOWS THESE ATROCITIES TO CONTINUE.

WE ARE HOPING BY THEM READING, GETTING TO KNOW WHAT IS BEING DONE IN THEIR NAME WILL GET PEOPLE HERE IN ISRAEL TO RISE UP, DEMAND THE GOVERNMENT TO STOP THESE ATTACKS AND HOPEFULLY STOP THE GENOCIDE.

>> WELL, BARAK HAS ASKED FOR PEACEFUL, NONVIOLENT MASS RESISTANCE.

YULI, HOW ARE YOU FEELING AFTER DOING THIS?

ARE YOU AFRAID?

>> I AM AFRAID BUT NOT MORE THAN I WAS TWO DAYS AGO, THREE DAYS AGO.

I AM AFRAID ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THIS PLACE, ABOUT MY ABILITY TO RAISE MY SON HERE.

WHAT I DO FEEL A BIT BETTER IS THE FACT WE WERE ABLE IN OUR ORGANIZATIONS, ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS, WE HAVE DOZENS OF PALESTINIANS FROM THE WEST BANK, GAZA AND INSIDE ISRAEL WHO WORKED TOGETHER WITH JEWISH ISRAELIS TO TRY AND MAKE SENSE OF WHAT WE SEE AROUND.

ALTHOUGH THIS MAKING SENSE IS A HORRIFIC REALITY WE NEED TO FACE.

AND TO STRUGGLE TOGETHER, OPPOSING ALSO THE POLARIZATION AND IMAGINATION THAT THIS -- IMAGINATIVE THING THAT --THAT WE CANNOT LIVE TOGETHER.

BASICALLY WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE, TAKE FORWARD THE STRUGGLE OF THE PEOPLE.

OF THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE.

>> OKAY.

>> IN ORDER TO CREATE A SPACE WHERE WE ALL CAN LIVE SAFELY.

>> EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND CEO, THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THIS IMPORTANT REPORT.

> >> NOW IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE MORE THAN 770,000 PEOPLE EXPERIENCE HOMELESSNESS IN ONE SINGLE NIGHT IN 2024, WE SPEAK TO THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL COALITION FOR THE HOMELESS, WHO HAS EXPERIENCED THIS STRUGGLE FIRSTHAND.

>> THANKS.

DONALD, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

PRESIDENT TRUMP RECENTLY LAID OUT AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ABOUT HOMELESSNESS.

WHAT IS IT ABOUT?

>> IT COVERS A NUMBER OF THINGS, ALL HORRIFYING.

IT ENCOURAGES CITIES TO ENFORCE FORCED INSTITUTIONALIZATION IN MENTAL HEALTH INSTITUTIONS AND JAILS.

AND WE THINK MAYBE EVEN DETENTION CAMPS.

FORCING PEOPLE INTO SUBSTANCE ABUSE TREATMENT.

IT ALSO DISCOURAGES SOME OF THE PROGRAMS THAT WE HAVE SEEN HAVE BEST OUTCOMES.

BEST PRACTICES.

THOSE PROGRAMS ARE DISCOURAGED.

FUNDING WILL BE TAKEN AWAY IF PEOPLE USE THINGS LIKE HARM REDUCTION OR DON'T CRIMINALIZE PEOPLE.

>> IN THERE IT SAYS SUR RENDERING OUR CITIES TO FEAR IS NOT COMPASSIONATE TO HOMELESS OR CITIZENS.

THIS IS PUBLIC SAFETY.

IS PUBLIC SAFETY A PROBLEM BECAUSE OF AN INCREASE IN THE HOMELESS POPULATION?

>> THE SAFETY IS REALLY PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS MORE LIKELY --AND PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES - -FAR MORE LIKELY TO BE VICTIMIZED THAN ANY MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC.

FURTHERMORE, I WOULD SAY THIS PARTICULAR EXECUTIVE ORDER DOESN'T DO ANYTHING TO SOLVE HOMELESSNESS.

IF YOU INCARCERATE PEOPLE, IF YOU USE INVOLUNTARY PLACEMENT IN MENTAL INSTITUTIONS, IT DOES NOT SOLVE HOMELESSNESS.

WHAT SOLVES HOMELESSNESS IS HOUSING SUPPORTIVE SERVICES, HEALTH CARE AND JOBS THAT PAY LIVEABLE WAGES.

>> THERE'S A COUPLE OF LAYERS I WANT TO UNPACK HERE.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SURVEYS OVER TIME, ISN'T HOMELESSNESS ON THE RISE?

>> SURE, HOMELESSNESS IS ON THE RISE, BUT IT'S ON THE RISE FOR REASONS OTHER THAN ANYTHING RELATED TO CRIMINALIZATION.

HOMELESSNESS IS ON THE RISE BECAUSE HOUSING COSTS ARE ON THE RISE.

SO THERE'S A DIRECT CORRELATION BETWEEN THE RISE IN HOUSING COSTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

WE SEE A RISE IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE 55 AND OLDER EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

WE'VE ALSO SEEN A RISE IN THESE KIND OF PRACTICES THAT CRIMINALIZE.

WHAT I MEAN IS THEY JAIL, TICKET AND FINE PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS, WHICH ACTUALLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO GET OUT OF HOMELESSNESS.

I BELIEVE THAT THE CRIMINALIZATION --WE'VE SEEN 320 NEW CITIES INSTITUTE LAWS TO CRIMINALIZE HOMELESS PEOPLE SINCE THE DREADFUL SUPREME COURT DECISION LAST YEAR THAT SAID EVEN THOUGH NOWHERE IN THIS COUNTRY THERE'S ENOUGH SHELTER OR ENOUGH HOUSING FOR PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS, CITIES ARE ABLE TO INSTITUTE THESE MEASURES THAT CRIMINALIZE PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

>> SO WE SAW THAT IN PART AS A REACTION TO THE ENCAMPMENTS HAPPENING IN CITIES LIKE PORTLAND, OREGON, OR LOS ANGELES, ET CETERA.

THERE ARE NOW CITIES THAT WANT TO PREVENT THAT HAPPENING IN THEIR OWN BACKYARD, RIGHT.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE PERCEPTION OF REALITY, PUBLIC OPINION POLLS, INCREASING PEOPLE ARE SAYING HOMELESSNESS IS A PROBLEM.

IS THAT BECAUSE OF HOW THESE STORIES FOR EXAMPLE COME OUT ON THE NEWS OR YOUTUBE, ET CETERA.

OR IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE?

>> I THINK PUBLIC PERCEPTION IS GUIDED BY MISINFORMATION.

SO WE'VE DONE OUR OWN INTERNAL POLLING AND WORKED WITH OTHER GROUPS IN THE HOMELESS SECTOR.

AND WHAT WE FIND IS 70% OF THE PEOPLE DO THINK THAT THERE IS AN ISSUE WITH HOMELESSNESS, BUT THEY DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU SHOULD FINE, ARREST OR JAIL PEOPLE.

AGAIN, THAT DOES NOT SOLVE HOMELESSNESS.

WHAT WE NEED TO SOLVE HOMELESSNESS IS MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

WE NEED A DRAMATIC INFLUX OF HOUSING PRODUCTION IN THIS COUNTRY IF WE'RE GOING TO SOLVE HOMELESSNESS.

REPORTS OUT OF THE NATIONAL LOW INCOME HOUSING COALITION, HOUSING WAGE IS ABOVE $20 AN HOUR, MINIMUM WAGE IS $7 AN HOUR.

PEOPLE CAN'T KEEP UP.

WE DON'T THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE LIVING UNDER BRIDGES, IN ABANDONED BUILDINGS, ENCAMPMENTS, ESPECIALLY THE ELDERLY, CHILDREN.

NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO LIVE OUTSIDE, EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A DECENT, SAFE AND AFFORDABLE HOME.

WE'RE NOT PRODUCING MORE HOUSING.

THE PRESIDENT'S BUDGET ZEROED OUT HOUSING PROGRAMS, WOULD CUT TERM LIMITS FOR HOUSING, PEOPLE COULD ONLY STAY TWO YEARS.

RECIPES FOR DISASTER.

THIS ADMINISTRATION NEEDS TO REALLY USE EVIDENCE-BASED INFORMATION AND LOOK AT THE TRUE UNDERLYING STRUCTURAL CAUSES OF HOMELESSNESS.

>> WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE- BASE INFORMATION SAYING?

WHAT ARE THE PROGRAMS THAT HELP PEOPLE NOT BE HOMELESS ANYMORE?

>> GREAT QUESTION.

ONE IS PERMANENT SUPPORTIVE HOUSING PROGRAM.

WHEN RESEARCHERS HAVE LOOKED AT THAT PROGRAM, THERE IS A 90% SUCCESS RATE.

ONE OF THE PROVISIONS IN THE EXECUTIVE ORDER SAYS THAT PEOPLE UTILIZING THOSE KINDS OF PROGRAMS --THIS IS A PROGRAM WHERE PEOPLE ARE TAKEN OFF THE STREET, PUT IN THEIR HOUSING UNIT AND PROVIDED AN ARRAY OF WRAPAROUND SERVICES FOR MENTAL HEALTH, FOR SUBSTANCE ABUSE.

AND THIS PROGRAM IS DESIGNED FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HOMELESS THE LONGEST, WHO HAVE THE HIGHEST PROBABILITY OF NOT BEING ABLE TO GET OUT ON THEIR OWN.

AND WE KNOW THAT THOSE SERVICES, SUBSTANCE ABUSE TREATMENT, BEHAVIORAL HEALTH TREATMENT, ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE BETTER DONE FOR PEOPLE IN A STABLE UNIT.

IT'S REALLY HARD TO PROVIDE THOSE KIND OF SERVICES WHEN SOMEONE IS SLEEPING IN AN OUTDOOR LOCATION.

THAT PROGRAM, AGAIN, HAS A 90% SUCCESS RATE IN STUDIES.

SO IT JUST ABSOLUTELY BOGGLES THE MIND TO THINK THAT THAT KIND OF PROGRAM WOULD BE ONE THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS AN ISSUE WITH.

>> YOU'RE SAYING FOR EXAMPLE THE 90% SUCCESS RATE BASED ON THE FACTS OF HOW THE PROGRAMS WORK AND WHAT'S BEEN MEASURED.

BUT THERE'S ALSO THIS PERCEPTION THAT PROVIDING MORE SERVICES TO HOMELESS PEOPLE OR MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE -- THIS IS TO SOME EXTENT THEIR FAULT, THEY GOT THEMSELVES INTO THIS AND WE COLLECTIVELY SHOULD NOT BE TRYING TO GIVE THEM ASSISTANCE AFTER A CERTAIN POINT.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?

>> A LOT OF THINGS ARE WRONG WITH THAT.

IN FACT, WE KNOW THAT BEHAVIORAL HEALTH ISSUES, MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, DISABILITY ISSUES, DEVELOPMENTAL DELAYS ARE MEDICAL ISSUES.

PEOPLE DON'T CAUSE THEMSELVES TO HAVE THESE KIND OF ISSUES.

SUBSTANCE ABUSE IS A DISEASE.

SO THESE ARE NOT MORAL FAILURES.

HOMELESSNESS DIDN'T INCREASE TO THE LEVEL IT IS BECAUSE PEOPLE FAILED MORALLY.

IT INCREASED BECAUSE WE STOPPED PROVIDING MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES AFTER DEINSTITUTIONALIZATION.

WE STOPPED JOBS THAT PAY IN THIS COUNTRY.

IT COSTS $20 AN HOUR IF YOU PAY 30% OF INCOME FOR HOUSING TO AFFORD TO PAY IT LONG TERM.

THESE ARE STRUCTURAL ISSUES.

IT'S NOT A PERSONAL FAILURE THERE'S OVERREPRESENTATION OF PEOPLE OF COLOR IN THE HOMELESS POPULATION.

AFRICAN AMERICANS, PEOPLE FROM THE NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITY ARE SEVERELY OVERREPRESENTED.

AND IT DOESN'T CORRELATE WITH POVERTY.

WE HAVE DEEP STRUCTURAL ISSUES TO SOLVE TO REDUCE HOMELESSNESS.

AND THE LAST THING ABOUT THAT, REASON WE'RE HERE --EVERY OTHER TIME, THERE'S FOUR SEGMENTS OF HOMELESSNESS IN OUR HISTORY IN THIS COUNTRY.

EVERY OTHER TIME THERE HAS BEEN A RESPONSE FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT LOWERED THOSE NUMBERS, MADE THOSE NUMBERS VIRTUALLY DISAPPEAR, TALKING ABOUT NEW DEAL PROGRAMS, SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, WE'VE NOT SEEN THAT IN THE LAST 40 YEARS.

THIS IS THE LONGEST HOMELESSNESS AND WE'VE NEVER PROVIDED RESOURCES LEVEL TO THE PROBLEM.

>> AS WE SEE THE PROBLEM GETTING WORSE, IS THAT AN INDICTMENT ON THE FACT THAT OUR POLICIES ARE NOT WORKING?

MAYBE THAT'S PART OF WHAT IS MOTIVATING THIS APPROACH BY THE ADMINISTRATION.

>> AGAIN, I WOULD SAY THAT WHEN WE HAVE DONE THINGS THAT WOULD BE PREVENTIVE IN NATURE, PREVENT PEOPLE FROM BECOMING HOMELESS IN THE FIRST PLACE, EXPANDED HOUSING PRODUCTION, IT HAS WORKED.

WE SAW THAT DURING COVID.

WE SAW COMMUNITIES MOVE AWAY FROM CONGREGATE SHELTERS WITH HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, TO SMALLER, INDIVIDUAL SETTINGS.

WE SAW EVICTION PREVENTION DOLLARS PUT IN PLACE.

WE SAW EMERGENCY HOUSING VOUCHERS.

AND HOUSING VOUCHERS ARE ONE OF THE BEST SOLUTIONS TO HOMELESSNESS.

THE PERMANENT SUPPORTIVE HOUSING PROGRAM I TALKED ABOUT IS A GREAT PROGRAM FOR A PORTION OF THE POPULATION, IT IS NOT BE-ALL/END-ALL.

WE NEED MORE, VOUCHERS.

EVERYBODY DESERVES, AGAIN, A SAFE PLACE TO LIVE.

ANOTHER ISSUE THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER FAILS TO RECOGNIZE IS THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN WE SEE ENTER THIS POPULATION.

CERTAINLY WE DON'T CONSIDER CHILDREN IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM, ALMOST 1.

5 MILLION OF THEM, CRIMINALS.

SO THERE'S A NEED TO LOOK AT THIS ISSUE COMPREHENSIVELY.

WHAT WE'VE BEEN FORCED TO DO AS A SECTOR IS CHOOSE PORTIONS OF THE POPULATION.

BECAUSE WE WERE FORCED TO OPERATE IN A SCARCITY MODEL.

THEY PICK THE POPULATION, SOMETIMES VETERANS, SOMETIMES THE CHRONICALLY HOMELESS, BUT WE'VE NEVER GOTTEN TO SCALE WITH THE RESOURCES FOR THIS ISSUE WHERE IT WAS A COMPREHENSIVE SOLUTION.

I AGREE WITH YOU THE POLICIES HAVE FAILED, BUT THE POLICIES ARE NOT ON THE PART OF PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS, THEY SHOULD NOT BE BLAMED BY THE GROWTH OF HOMELESSNESS, WE HAVE A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO HAVE NEVER ADDRESSED THE PROBLEM IN A COMPREHENSIVE WAY.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE POPULATION OF HOMELESSNESS, IS THE PROPORTION OF PEOPLE WITH MENTAL ILLNESSES AND MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS RISING?

NUMBERS IN NEW YORK, AROUND 17%, ALMOST A QUARTER OF THE POPULATION IN CALIFORNIA.

IS THE ADMINISTRATION RIGHT TO TRY AND TARGET THIS POPULATION?

THE PRESIDENT SAYS FOR THOSE SEVERELY MENTALLY ILL AND DEEPLY DISTURBED WE'LL BRING THEM TO MENTAL INSTITUTIONS WHERE THEY BELONG WITH THE GOAL OF REINTEGRATING THEM INTO SOCIETY ONCE THEY CAN MANAGE.

>> IT'S CERTAINLY A GREAT NEED, THERE'S A PORTION OF THE POPULATION THAT SUFFERS FROM MENTAL ILLNESS, MANY SEVERE.

WE LEARNED IN THE '50s, ALMOST 70 YEARS AGO, THAT THAT WAS NOT --PUTTING LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE INTO MENTAL INSTITUTIONS WAS A FAILED POLICY.

THAT'S HOW WE GOT TO DEINSTITUTIONALIZATION.

A MUCH BETTER SOLUTION WAS SMALLER COMMUNITY-BASED FACILITIES WHERE PEOPLE GOT TO HAVE AGENCY.

BUT ADDRESSED THEIR MENTAL HEALTH AT THE SAME TIME.

WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED IS DETENTION CAMPS, PUTTING PEOPLE IN INSTITUTIONS, BASICALLY WAREHOUSING THEM.

AND THERE IS NO HOUSING ATTACHED TO THIS.

THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE.

IF YOU PUT PEOPLE IN THOSE INSTITUTIONS, I'LL REPEAT THIS, OR YOU PUT THEM IN A CORRECTION FACILITY, ONE OF THE LARGEST CONCENTRATIONS OF PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES IS THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY JAIL FOR INSTANCE.

THEY DON'T HAVE HOUSING WHEN THEY LEAVE THOSE INSTITUTIONS.

SO YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING BUT DISAPPEAR PEOPLE, MADE PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING TO ADDRESS HOMELESSNESS WHEN REALLY YOU'RE HIDING THE ISSUE.

BUT IT DOES NOT SOLVE HOMELESSNESS, IT REMOVES PEOPLE FROM SYSTEMS OF CARE THEY'VE ENGAGED IN TO HELP TOWARDS THEIR EVENTUAL ESCAPE FROM HOMELESSNESS.

PEOPLE ARE FORCED INTO THAT ISSUE.

THEY WANT TREATMENT, THE TREATMENT IS JUST NOT AVAILABLE.

NEW YORK TRIED TO DO A FORCED INSTITUTIONALIZATION AND FOUND THEY WERE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF BEDS LESS THAN THE NEED FOR PEOPLE THAT NEEDED THAT PARTICULAR INTERVENTION.

THIS WOULD BE THE SAME EVERYWHERE IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT THAN WAREHOUSING PEOPLE.

IT DOES NOT WORK.

WE'VE SEEN HORRIFIC VIDEOS 50 YEARS AGO, AND WE DON'T WANT TO RETURN TO THAT.

BUT WE THINK THIS IS A RECIPE FOR US TO RETURN TO THAT.

>> IS THE EXECUTIVE ORDER CONSTITUTIONAL?

IS IT GOING TO BE CHALLENGED IN THE COURTS?

>> SO I THINK IT WILL BE CHALLENGED IN THE COURTS, BUT IT IS CRAFTED IN A WAY THAT THE ADMINISTRATION WILL HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF FREEDOM UNTIL THEY ACTUALLY START TO IMPLEMENT IT.

THERE CERTAINLY WILL BE CHALLENGES, BUT NOT IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT'S CRAFTED.

SO WE HAVE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH SOME OF THE LARGER LEGAL INSTITUTIONS IN THE COUNTRY, AND THOSE WITHIN THE HOMELESS SECTOR, AND WE ARE CRAFTING A STRATEGY.

THIS WON'T GO UNADDRESSED.

WE WILL PROVIDE A LEGAL RESISTANCE TO THIS PARTICULAR ORDER.

AND THAT IDEA IS BEING SHAPED NOW.

>> WHY IS THIS PERSONAL FOR YOU?

>> PART OF IT IS BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE.

BUT THE OTHER ISSUE IS I'VE EXPERIENCED HOMELESSNESS MYSELF.

AND I EXPERIENCED IT TWICE.

AS A CHILD, AND AS AN ADULT.

AND SINCE THAT TIME I'VE BEEN ABLE TO SAVE TENS OF, MAYBE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

I PUT 200 PEOPLE I FOUND ON THE STREETS OF PRINCE GEORGE'S COUNTY MARYLAND INTO UNITS DURING COVID.

IT IS PERSONAL.

I TALK TO PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS EVERY DAY, AND I TELL YOU, I ANSWER AN EMAIL BOX THAT IS FREQUENTLY AND EVERY DAY I SEE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE REALLY, REALLY CONCERNED.

THEY'RE SAYING I'M HOMELESS AND I JUST HEARD THAT I'M GOING TO BE ARRESTED.

WHAT SHOULD I DO?

THOSE ARE THE THINGS I'M HEARING IN OUR INFO BOX.

EVERY ONE OF THOSE STORIES TOUCHES ME BECAUSE OF MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

I KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE HOMELESS AND BE HARASSED WHILE I WAS ON THE STREET.

SO IT REALLY HITS HOME ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.

AND I AM COMMITTED TO DOING EVERYTHING I CAN TO MAKE SURE THAT WE PUSH BACK AGAINST THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER.

>> EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL COALITION FOR THE HOMELESS, DONALD WHITEHEAD, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU, I APPRECIATE YOU BRINGING ATTENTION TO THIS ISSUE, IT'S SO, SO IMPORTANT.

>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

GOODBYE FROM LONDON.