>>> HELLO EVERYONE, WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>>> WE NEED LASTING PEACE AND HAVING A REFOCUS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE DYING EVERYWHERE.

>> WAR AND PEACE IN THE BALANCE, I ASKED THE PRESIDENT OF THE U.N.

GENERAL ASSEMBLY, ANNALENA BAERBOCK , FOR HER OPINION ON UKRAINE 'S RESILIENCE AGAINST RUSSIA AND THE FUTURE OF THE UNITED NATIONS.

>>> I HAVE LIVED WITH THE STORIES AND THE JOURNEY OF MY PARENTS AND THE PAIN OF DISPLACEMENT IN EXILE.

>> TO MARK WORLD REFUGEE DAY, I HEAR FROM SHERINE IBRAHIM AND A FORMER REFUGEE, NOW STARTED THE ACCLAIMED TV SHOW, THE PITT, SEPIDEH MOAFI.

>>> A FAMILY SECRET NO MORE, REPORTING ON HER OWN HISTORY, JOURNALIST SUSAN SAULNY TELLS MICHEL MARTIN THE STORY OF TWO BLACK BROTHERS, ONE LIVING UNDER JIM CROWE LAWS , AND THE OTHER PASSING AS WHITE.

>>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT , JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS , CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM , THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION , THE PETER G. PETERSON FUND , CHARLES ROSENBLUM , BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS PBS STATION BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

A WIN -WIN OR A CAPITULATION?

THIS WEEK, G-7 ALLIES PRAISED PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR HIS AGREEMENT WITH IRAN AS HE SIGNED HIS VERY OWN TREATY AT A DINNER ON WEDNESDAY NIGHT.

BUT EVEN MANY OF HIS OWN REPUBLICAN SUPPORTERS ARE HIGHLY CRITICAL.

HE IS --.

HIS FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

>> I DO HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THE MEMORANDUM AND THE TERMS ABOUT WHAT IS IN IT AND ALSO WHAT IS NOT IN IT.

IT SUGGESTS TO ME THAT IT SMACKS OF A KIND OF APPEASEMENT THAT OUR ADMINISTRATION REJECTED IN THE NUCLEAR DEAL.

>> THE MOU IS AN AGREEMENT TO DEAL WITH THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES AHEAD, ESPECIALLY THE NUCLEAR FILE.

IMMEDIATE CONCESSIONS TO TEHRAN , NOTABLY TO RAISE SANCTIONS ON ITS OIL EXPORTS WITH BILLIONS OF DOLLARS FLOWING BACK INTO THE REGIME 'S COFFERS AND NO MENTION OF HUMAN RIGHTS FOR THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.

IS THIS A CASE OF A SUPERPOWER MISJUDGING ITS ADVERSARY ?

LIKE VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS DONE WITH HIS INVASION OF UKRAINE.

STRENGTHENING SANCTIONS ON THE , KYIV HAS PUMMELED MOSCOW, FORCING THE CAPITOL TO CLOSE ITS AIRPORTS.

IN THE LATEST FROM THE FRONT, IT IS UKRAINE NOW INCREMENTALLY PUSHING RUSSIA BACK.

NOW, THAT THE IRANIAN AGREEMENT IS SIGNED, TRUMP WILL TURN HIS ATTENTION BACK TO NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN PUTIN AND THE UKRAINE.

WHERE HAS THE UNITED NATIONS BEEN ?

HISTORICALLY, IT IS THE GLOBAL CONFLICT RESOLUTION MECHANISM.

ANNALENA BAERBOCK IS NOW PRESIDENT OF THE UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

I SPOKE TO HER THIS WEEK TO DISCUSS THE STATE OF WAR, KYIV, AND THE FUTURE OF THE UNITED NATIONS.

ANNALENA BAERBOCK, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

SO, THERE ARE BIG ISSUES BEING TALKED ABOUT RIGHT NOW, ISSUES THAT ARE NOT JUST GLOBAL, BUT VERY PERTINENT TO THE UNITED NATIONS.

LET ME ASK YOU FIRST ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO BE THE RESULT OF THIS MOU, BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND IRAN, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT IS GOING TO LEAD TO?

>> HOPEFULLY TO MORE PEACE AND ENDING THE CONSEQUENCES ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

ENDING HOSTILITIES , ENDING A WAR IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING.

YES, WE HAVE TO BE VERY HONEST TO OURSELVES, TO SEE WHERE THE WORLD STOOD BEFORE FEBRUARY 28th.

AND SOME OF THE CONSEQUENCES WILL BE FELT , FERTILIZER NOT GETTING TO DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY, IT WILL BE CONSEQUENTIAL FOR THE POOREST AROUND THE WORLD.

NOT HAVING THE HARVEST THEY SHOULD HAVE.

THE ENERGY PRICES HIT THE POOREST THE MOST.

WE SHOULD NOT FORGET ABOUT THE PEOPLE OF IRAN DEMANDING FREEDOM FOR THEMSELVES , FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

AND THEREFORE, A CEASE-FIRE AND END OF WAR, IT IS ALWAYS VERY IMPORTANT.

IT IS THE BEST WE CAN ACHIEVE YET WE SHOULD NOT IGNORE THE REASONS AFTER THIS WAR AND ALSO, THAT THE SECRETARY GENERAL AND I HOPE IMMEDIATELY TO EVERYONE , THE CHARTER IS NOT OPTIONAL, THERE IS A REASON THAT THEY SHOULD SETTLE PEACEFULLY, IT SHOULD BE ONE OF THE STRONGEST REMINDERS OF THE LAST MONTH.

>> BECAUSE THE NUCLEAR ISSUE IS SO IMPORTANT TO THE UNITED NATIONS, THIS IS STILL TO BE IRAN IS GOING TO PLEDGE, OR IT HAS PLEDGED, THAT IT WILL NOT SEEK A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

OF COURSE, THIS WAS ITS POSITION AND IT WAS ON THE TABLE BEFORE THE WAR, AS YOU SAY.

BUT I AM INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU JUST SAID ABOUT THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.

AS YOU KNOW, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL, BOTH OF THEM WENT INTO THIS WAR TOGETHER.

TALK ABOUT LIBERATING THE PEOPLE .

INSTEAD, THE DEAL HAS BEEN MADE TO KEEP THE CURRENT ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN REGIME IN POWER.

NOT ONLY THAT, ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS SUGGESTS OR SAYS THAT BOTH IRAN AND THE UNITED STATES WILL RESPECT EACH OTHER'S TERRITORIAL SOVEREIGNTY, INTEGRITY, AND PLEDGE NOT TO INTERFERE IN EACH OTHER'S AFFAIRS.

THAT SEEMS TO ME, AS I READ IT, NO MORE ATTEMPTS AT REGIME CHANGE IN THE IRANIAN PEOPLE AROUND THEIR OWN.

>> FIRST OF ALL, IT IS NOT UP TO ME TO COMMENT ON THE SPECIFICS OF A BILATERAL NEGOTIATION.

, IT IS MY ROLE TO UPHOLD THE CHARTER, THE CHARTER OF THE UNITED NATIONS, WHICH MAKES VERY CLEAR THAT EVERY MEMBER STATE HAS A SOVEREIGN RIGHT TO THEIR OWN TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY .

THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS WHICH IS, BY NAME, UNIVERSAL, UNDERLINING THAT EVERY PERSON AROUND THE WORLD HAS THE RIGHT TO LIVE IN FREEDOM AND DIGNITY AND SECURITY AND EXPRESS THEIR OPINION FREELY.

AND UPHOLDING THESE PRINCIPLES IS MORE IMPORTANT IN THESE TIMES, THEN BEFORE.

AND , THEREFORE, THIS HAS TO BE PART OF THE CURRENT DISCUSSION.

WE SAW HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED IN THE LAST MONTH AND ALSO BEFORE FEBRUARY AND THERE IS A GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY TO STAND UP FOR HUMAN RIGHTS , TO STAND UP FOR THE CHARTER AND THE TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF EVERY COUNTRY.

THANK YOU FOR RAISING THE POINT OF THE NUCLEAR SAFETY AS WELL.

THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST SEVERE GLOBAL THREATS.

THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THIS INSTITUTION , THE UNITED NATIONS, WAS FOUNDED, 80 YEARS AGO.

THE CONSEQUENCES OF USING A NUCLEAR BOMB, THEREFORE, THE POINT AROUND THE SECURING OF IRAN, APPLYING THE INTERNATIONAL GROUP , THE NUCLEAR SAFETY, AND IT HAS TO BE FOLLOWED UP IMMEDIATELY IN THE UPCOMING DAYS.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT UKRAINE WHICH YOU WERE VERY INVOLVED IN, IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE FULL-SCALE INVASION BY PUTIN.

OBVIOUSLY IT IS A BIG ISSUE FOR UNITED NATIONS BECAUSE IT GOES TO THE HEART OF THE U.N.

PRESENT --PROMISE THAT THERE WILL BE NO MORE WAR, AND COUNTRIES WILL NOT BREAK INTERNATIONAL BORDERS, AT THE G- ATTENTION BACK TO UKRAINE AND TRY TO HELP, BUT IT APPEARS THAT RUSSIA IS BECOMING, I DON'T KNOW, BEING DESCRIBED AS MAY BE MORE DESPERATE, ALL SORTS OF ACTIVITIES ARE BEING BLAMED ON RUSSIA , IN THE UK, IN THE ENGLISH CHANNEL, THEY ARE BLAMING ARSONISTS FOR DAMAGES CONNECTED TO THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE GOING ON.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE U.N.

CAN DO ABOUT IT, GIVEN THAT RUSSIA IS PART OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL AND HAS A VETO AND THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, WHICH YOU ARE PRESIDENT OF, DOES NOT HAVE THAT POWER TO CONTAIN A MEMBER STATE?

>> THIS IS THE BIG CHALLENGE OF THE UNITED NATIONS, THIS INSTITUTION , AT THE BEGINNING, IT WAS NOT BUILT TO HELP HUMANKIND IT TO FOLLOW-UP ON THE PRINCIPLES THAT THEY ALL SIGNED, 80 YEARS AGO, IF A PERMANENT MEMBER OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL, BY DEFINITION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR UPHOLDING PEACE AND SECURITY AROUND THE WORLD, VIOLATING THAT, BY ITSELF, AND THE INSTITUTION LIKE THE U.N.

, WHICH DOES NOT HAVE ANY POWERS, CANNOT SOLVE THIS PROBLEM ALONE, THIS IS WHY THE DEBATE WITHIN THE UNITED NATIONS, IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, BY 193 MEMBER STATES, IS SO CRUCIAL.

THE VAST MAJORITY WOULD KNOW THAT ANY BREACH OF THE SOVEREIGNTY OF ANOTHER STATE IS A DIRECT THREAT FOR THEMSELVES.

THEY ARE NOT SURE WHETHER THEY MAY BE NEXT IN THE FUTURE .

THEREFORE, THE MAJORITY OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT ALL THE LAST YEARS THAT THIS IS A FUNDAMENTAL BREACH OF THE CHARTER OF THE UNITED NATIONS.

AND THAT RUSSIA HAS TO WITHDRAW THEIR TROOPS AND WE NEED JUST AND LASTING PEACE.

AND HAVING A REFOCUS ON THESE DEBATES IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE DYING EVERYWHERE EVERY DAY.

AND, AS YOU MENTIONED, THIS IS HYBRID WARFARE, WE SEE THE CONSEQUENCES ALL AGAIN AROUND THE WORLD, WITH REGARD, IN THE PAST, WITH THE CRISIS, THE ENERGY CRISIS .

FOR EXAMPLE, IN ROMANIA, A DRONE HIT A CIVILIAN PLANE , EVEN IN THE TERRITORY OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.

>> IT MAKES ME WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ARTICLE FIVE OF THE ROMANIAN PACT, AND IT WAS, THE MANTRA IS, NOT ONE INCH.

DO YOU FANCY EXPRESSING YOURSELF ON WHETHER NATO SHOULD HAVE REACTED TO THAT?

>> AGAIN, MY CURRENT POSITION AS THE PRESIDENT OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

WITH EVERYTHING I HEARD , WE ALSO HAVE TO CALL OUT VIOLATIONS OF THE CHARTER AND THIS UNDERLINES, AGAIN, THE NEUTRALITY , AND A SITUATION OF INJUSTICE.

IT IS NOT NEUTRALITY.

BUT IT ALWAYS SUPPORTS THE AGGRESSOR.

TAKING A SIDE TO HUMANITY, PEACE, AND PROTECTING THE CHARTER SHOULD BE IN THE INTEREST OF ALL.

>> OKAY, LET ME NOW GO BACK TO THE FOUNDING PRINCIPLES OF THE U.N.

WE ARE TALKING AT A TIME WHEN THE U.N.

HAS BEEN STRUGGLING TO ASSERT ITS LEGITIMATE AND HISTORIC POSITIONS ON THE WORLD STAGE.

THE UNITED STATES, THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION, KIND OF SIDELINES THE U.N.

TO A GREAT EXTENT AND YOU ARE FACING AN UPCOMING ELECTION FOR THE NEXT SECRETARY-GENERAL OF THE UNITED NATIONS.

YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW THE GRANDSON OF ONE OF THE FOUNDING U.N.

GENERAL , SECRETARIES GENERAL, THE U.N.

'S FOUNDING STRENGTH WAS NOT INSTITUTIONAL.

IT IS NOT JUST BECAUSE YOU WERE CALLED THE U.N.. IT IS TWO CONVICTIONS, ONE, THAT WARS OF AGGRESSION ARE INTOLERABLE AND TWO, THAT EMPIRES MUST END.

HE SAYS BOTH OF THOSE PRINCIPLES ARE ERODING, WE TALKED ABOUT IRAN AND ALL THE REST OF IT, DO YOU THINK, YOU AGREE THAT THOSE PRINCIPLES, THE FOUNDING SORT OF, YOU KNOW?

THE FOUNDING PRINCIPLES OF STOPPING WARS OF AGGRESSION AND THAT , HAS BEEN SOMEWHAT WATERED DOWN, OR ALLOT WATERED-DOWN?

>> WITHOUT QUESTION, THE HUMAN IS NOT ONLY UNDER PRESSURE.

I MADE IT VERY CLEAR AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS YEAR, IT IS UNDER DIRECT ATTACK.

IF MEMBER STATES , WHO HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITIES, DO HAVE A PERMANENT SEAT IN THE SECURITY COUNCIL, BUT OF THE CHARTER, OBVIOUSLY THIS IS NOT ONLY A CHALLENGE, BUT THIS IS FOR THE UNITED NATIONS, THE COMMITMENT OF THIS MEMBER STATE, IT IS THE SUM OF 193.

SOME ARE ARGUING NOW, WELL, IF THEY ARE NOT DELIVERING ON THE PRINCIPLES, MAYBE WE SHOULD GET RID OF THE UNITED NATIONS, IF PLAYING IN THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO ARE IN VIOLATION OF THE CHARTER.

BECAUSE WHAT WOULD BE THE ALTERNATIVE?

WE SHOULD JUST NOT ENGAGE IN UNITED NATIONS ANYMORE?

EVEN MORE COUNTRIES WOULD BE ENCOURAGED TO USE FORCE TO COME FORWARD WITH THEIR INTERESTS .

ALSO, ON THE OTHER HAND, THE UNITED NATIONS WAS MAINLY BUILT TO PROTECT CIVILIANS.

AND THERE IS NO OTHER ACTOR AROUND THE WORLD WHO CAN ALSO, THE BORDER , AND ALSO THE PROPOSAL OF SAYING, WE SEE THAT THIS CANNOT BE DONE BY A GROUP OF SOME, IT NEEDS THE POWER OF THE WHOLE UNITED NATIONS.

WITHOUT THE U.N.

AND ALL OF ITS SUB AGENCIES, FOR EXAMPLE, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WOULD LITERALLY STARVE WITHOUT THE UNITED NATIONS AND UNICEF.

MILLIONS OF CHILDREN WOULD NOT GO TO SCHOOL, LOOK AT THE EXAMPLE OF EBOLA.

WITHOUT THE PREVENTED ACTION BY AN INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION , WE HAVE OUTBREAKS OF CRISES.

AGAIN, WHICH WE HAVE DEALT WITH SUCCESSFULLY, WHEN EVERYBODY JOINTS HANDS AND DID NOT CUT SO HEAVILY ON FUNDING.

WANT A STRONG UNITED NATIONS, WE NEED A STRONG COMMITMENT BY MEMBER STATES, ESPECIALLY THOSE HAVING A SPECIAL RIGHT AND THEREFORE A SPECIAL RESPONSIBILITY WITHIN THE >> WHAT IF THEY DO NOT WANT A STRONGER UNITED NATIONS?

YOUR STRONGEST BACKER AND FUNDRAISER, WHICH IS THE UNITED STATES, I KNOW YOU ARE TALKING OBLIQUELY.

BUT IF THE UNITED STATES, WHICH HAS CUT ALL OF THIS AID, TO THE U.N., ESPECIALLY IN HUMANITARIAN AFFAIRS, PARTICULARLY AROUND THE EBOLA BREAKOUT.

WE ALSO SEE THE BOARD OF PEACE IS A U.S.

CONSTRUCTION, AND THE DIRECTOR OF THAT HAS SAID IN HIS OWN WORDS, THAT DESPITE SIX MONTHS OR MORE NOW OF THE CEASE- FIRE IN GAZA, THERE ARE, QUOTE, NO RECOVERY IN GAZA.

80% OF THE BUILDINGS DESTROYED, NO RECONSTRUCTION, BARELY BEGUN.

ISRAELI FORCES CONTROL UP TO 60 OR MORE PERCENT OF THE STRIP .

WELL BELOW THE LEVEL THE CEASE- FIRE WAS SUPPOSED TO BRING IT BACK TO.

PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE THE CEASE-FIRE.

ISN'T THAT A SLAP IN THE FACE TO THE UNITED NATIONS?

>> I WOULD RATHER SAY IT SHOWS ORGANIZATION CANNOT DELIVER.

BY ALL ITS IMPERFECTION , WITHOUT ANY DOUBT, HAVING WORKED IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS IN THIS SYSTEM, WE NEED A DEEPER REFORM.

YET THE STRENGTH OF THE UNITED NATIONS IS, NO MATTER HOW BIG OR SMALL, HOW STRONG, OR HOW WEAK , EVERY COUNTRY HAS AN EQUAL SEAT AT THE TABLE.

THAT IS DIFFERENT THAN THE INSTITUTION YOU MENTIONED.

YOU CANNOT BUY YOURSELF INTO THIS CLUB.

BUT EVERYONE IS EQUAL.

AND THIS SOMETIMES TAKES LONGER .

193, OR IF YOU NEED A MAJORITY, OF 193 , IT IS HARDER.

YET , IF YOU HAVE THE WHOLE COMMITMENT OF THE WORLD, YOU CAN ALSO DELIVER BETTER.

YES, INDEED, MEMBER STATES, THEY ARE DRAMATIC CUTS AND WE SHOULD NOT SUGARCOAT .

PEOPLE ARE DYING BECAUSE OF THAT, WE HAVE AID IN WAREHOUSES THAT CANNOT BE DELIVERED, INCIDENTS, FOR EXAMPLE.

AND WE HAVE TO ASK ALSO OURSELVES, AT THIS MOMENT, WHY ARE WE ENDANGERING ALL OF THE SUCCESSES FROM THE PAST.

I MENTIONED EBOLA.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS HIV-AIDS, THIS WAS ONE OF THESE GLOBAL DISEASES, MORE THAN 30 YEARS AGO, THE WORLD DID NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO.

THEY JOINED HANDS.

WE MANAGED TO CONTROL IT, AND NOW WE ARE ON THE EDGE OF DESTROYING, THE LAST MILE, BECAUSE THE CUTS ARE BEING SO HEAVY.

BUT TO BE FRANK AND OPEN, IT IS NOT ONLY ON THE U.S., THE U.S.

IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST DONORS BECAUSE OF THEIR SIZE.

AND THE NONPAYMENT BY THE U.S., IT IS DRAMATIC.

YET, ALSO OTHER MEMBER STATES DID NOT PAY YET IN FULL.

AND DEFINITELY NOT ON TIME, SO IT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL DISCUSSION WHICH WE HAVE TO HAVE AN UNITED NATIONS ABOUT THE FUNDING SYSTEM ITSELF.

>> WELL, MANY OF THOSE WHO BACKED U.N.

BACK UNITED NATIONS BELIEVE THAT WHOEVER IS THE NEXT SECRETARY-GENERAL NEEDS TO ACTUALLY REALLY INSERT THEMSELVES AND EXERT THE MORAL BULLY PULPIT AND ALL OF THE THINGS YOU CAN DO.

SO, MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WHAT A WOMAN FOR THE FIRST TIME AS SECRETARY GENERAL, BE ABLE TO DO THAT?

SPEAKING TO QUOTE THE CURRENT SECRETARY-GENERAL, ANTONIO GUTERRES, AFTER 80 YEARS, IT IS TIME FOR A WOMAN, IT HAS BEEN TIME 20 YEARS AGO, EVEN 80 YEARS AGO, WOMEN ARE HALF OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION, WE KNOW THAT IF YOU INCLUDE A WOMAN IN PEACE BUILDING NEGOTIATIONS, TREATIES LAST LONGER.

IF YOU HAVE EQUAL REPRESENTATION IN BUSINESSES, IN YOUR ECONOMY, ECONOMIES GROW STRONGER AND BETTER.

WE KNOW THAT, OCCUPATION RIGHTS, IF WOMEN'S ART IN GAUGED.

TWO YEARS AGO, ALL MEMBER STATES, A BIT OF A SURPRISE, IN UNITY CALLED FOR STRONGLY NOMINATING WOMEN.

WE NOW HAVE MORE WOMAN CANDIDATES, BECAUSE MORE APPLIED IN THE LAST DAYS.

AND THEREFORE, THIS BECOMES ALSO A QUESTION OF CREDIBILITY FOR THE UNITED NATIONS ITSELF.

SO, IF THEY CALL IN CONSENSUS OF NOMINATING WOMAN, IT WILL BE REALLY HARD TO EXPLAIN AFTERWARDS WHY, IN A TIME OF 2026, IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

AGAIN.

AND THIS LIES REALLY IN THE HANDS OF THE MEMBER STATES.

IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, MORE THAN 150 HEADS OF STATE MADE IT VERY CLEAR IN SEPTEMBER, IN THE GENERAL DEBATE, THAT THEY REALLY WANT TO SEE THAT THE HUMAN IS STANDING UP TO ITS OWN PRINCIPLES, ALSO BY APPOINTING THE NECK SECRETARY-GENERAL.

>> YOU MADE YOUR POINT , ANNALENA BAERBOCK, PRESIDENT OF THE UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> IN A WORLD PLAGUED BY WAR, IS VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES THAT ARE HURT THE MOST.

OFFICIAL U.N.

FIGURES SHOW ALMOST 180 MILLION PEOPLE ARE DISPLACED, THAT IS DOUBLE THE NUMBER SINCE 2014.

SO, THIS YEAR'S WORLD REFUGEES DAY, THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE IS TRYING TO RAISE AWARENESS.

SEPIDEH MOAFI WAS BORN IN GERMANY AFTER FAMILY FLED IRAN , FOLLOWING THE RESOLUTION.

NOW SHE IS AN ACTRESS BEST KNOWN FOR HER ROLE IN THE HIT SERIES THE PITT.

SHE IS AN AMBASSADOR FOR THE IRC.

SHE JOINED ME WITH FORMER IRC OFFICIAL, SHERINE IBRAHIM.

SEPIDEH AND SHERINE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

MAY WE START WITH YOU, SHERINE, I WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION TO WHAT THE EU HAS JUST LEGISLATED.

THE PARLIAMENT HAS APPROVED THE STRICTEST I CAN NEVER MIGRATION LOT IN DECADES BUT IT APPARENTLY ALLOWS EU COUNTRIES OUTSIDE THE EU ITSELF.

SORT OF RETURN HUBS , THEY ARE CALLING IT.

YOU KNOW WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT, AND WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT OF IT?

>> THANK YOU , CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

WE ARE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE IMPLICATIONS OF THESE DECISIONS.

BUT WE, AS THE IRC, CALL UPON GOVERNMENT, WHETHER THEY ARE THE U.S.

, TO MAKE SURE THEY PRESERVE ACCESS FOR ASYLUM AND REASSIGNMENT PROGRAMS FOR PEOPLE WHO SEEK THAT ASYLUM , OR SEEK THAT RESETTLEMENT OPPORTUNITY, HAVE FAITH AND DIGNIFIED PATHWAYS TO DO SO , THAT IS WHAT WE ARE SEEING , IS THAT PEOPLE GO TO GREAT LENGTHS AND RISK THEIR OWN LIVES.

SO, THAT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE IRC .

TO MAKE SURE THAT THE REFUGEES ARE SAFEGUARDED.

>> JUST TO CONSIDER -- CONTINUE, THERE ARE MILLIONS OF REFUGEES WHO NEED TO BE SETTLED.

FOR THE FIRST TIME THOUGH IN A DECADE, THE TOTAL NUMBER OF FORCIBLY DISPLACED PEOPLE HAS DECLINED.

DO YOU BUY THAT?

DECLINED OVER THE LAST YEAR.

>> I THINK , THERE IS OPTIMISM, WE HAVE TO SEE THE NUANCE OF THESE FIGURES.

THE U.N.

FIGURES ARE TELLING US THAT THERE ARE 180 MILLION FORCIBLY DISPLACED PEOPLE GLOBALLY.

TODAY, AS WE LOOK AT 2026 NUMBERS, WE CAN CELEBRATE THAT 14 MILLION PEOPLE HAVE RETURNED TO THEIR HOME , SO FIGURES ARE RETURNING, ON THE FLIPSIDE, WE HAVE 14 MILLION REALLY DISPLACED PEOPLE THIS YEAR ALONE , AS A RESULT OF NEW WARS .

SO, I WOULD TAKE THAT, OBVIOUSLY THAT FIGURE, THAT OPTIMISM, AND DIG INTO A LITTLE MORE DEEPLY.

WHAT WE ARE FEELING AS A HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATION AND, ESPECIALLY THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE, WE ARE DEALING THAT THIS DOES NOT FEEL LIKE RECOVERY.

IT FEELS LIKE A REVOLVING DOOR.

PEOPLE RETURNING, BUT MORE PEOPLE ARE BEING DISPLACED AND UNFORTUNATELY, THEIR DISPLACEMENT EXPERIENCE TAKES MUCH MUCH LONGER TO RESOLVE.

EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE OPTIMISM TODAY, THIS NUMBER MAY SEE AN INCREASE IN THE FUTURE, IF WARS AND CLIMATE DISASTERS CONTINUE.

>> WE WILL KEEP AN EYE ON THAT, LET ME TURN TO YOU, SEPIDEH.

YOU ARE INCREDIBLY WELL KNOWN IN THE UNITED STATES, ESPECIALLY FOR THE PITT ON A REFUGEE, YOU WERE APPARENTLY BORN IN A REFUGEE CAMP AFTER YOUR PARENTS FLED THE ISLAMIC REVOLUTION OF 1979.

TALK TO ME ABOUT WHAT YOU REMEMBER FROM THAT EXPERIENCE, AND WHY YOU DECIDED TO BECOME A SPECIAL AMBASSADOR FOR THE IRC.

>> MY LENS ON THE WORLD WAS FORGED BY HOW I ENTERED IT, MY PARENTS WERE POLITICAL ACTIVISTS FIGHTING FOR DEMOCRACY.

MY FATHER WAS IN PRISON UNDER THE SHAW, AND, AS YOU KNOW, DEPRESSION BECAME --OPPRESSION BECAME MUCH MORE BRUTAL.

MANY OF MY PARENTS ' FRIENDS WERE IMPRISONED, EXECUTED .

YET, THEY CONTINUED THEIR ACTIVISM UNTIL THEY WERE FORCED TO FLEE.

THEY LEFT THEIR HOME WITH NOTHING MORE THAN THE SUITCASE.

MY OLDER SISTER FLED TO TURKEY , WHERE THEY SOUGHT ASYLUM AND THEN LIVED IN REFUGEE CAMPS IN GERMANY, EAST AND WEST GERMANY, I WAS BORN IN REGENSBURG, IN A REFUGEE CAMP.

I WAS STILL A BABY WHEN WE CAME TO THE UNITED STATES AND WERE ULTIMATELY GRANTED ASYLUM.

BUT I HAVE LIVED WITH THE STORIES AND THE JOURNEY OF MY PARENTS AND THE PAIN OF DISPLACEMENT AND EXILE MY WHOLE LIFE.

THIS HAS FUELED MY ADVOCACY WORK IN MY WORK AS AN ARTIST.

I SIMPLY CANNOT SEPARATE MY PARENTS' STORIES AND OUR JOURNEY TO THE UNITED STATES, FROM THE 118 MILLION DISPLACED PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD AND THEIR STORIES.

I HAVE BEEN A LONGTIME ADMIRER OF THE WORK THAT THE INTERNATIONAL REFUGEE COMMITTEE DOES.

I STARTED BY DONATING IN HIGH SCHOOL WHENEVER SMALL AMOUNT I COULD ABOUT SEVEN YEARS AGO, THEY INVITED ME TO BE AN AMBASSADOR, TO HELP REFUGEES AND DISPLACED PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD SURVIVE, RECOVER, AND REBUILD LIVES.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE I KNOW FOR THE IRC, YOU HAD VISITED THE REFUGEE CAMP FOR SYRIANS IN JORDAN, AND WITH THE FALL OF MOSSAD, PEOPLE HAVE GONE BACK AND THERE ARE MANY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE STILL THERE.

BUT DID THIS EXPERIENCE THAT YOU JUST TOLD ME ABOUT, DID IT INFORM YOUR ROLE IN THE PITT ?

YOU PLAY, IN THE SECOND SEASON , A DOCTOR, AND BEFORE , YOU KNOW, BEFORE YOU COME TO THE VET, YOUR STORY IS, YOU WORKED AT DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS IN AFGHANISTAN.

THE WHOLE HUMANITARIAN LANDSCAPE, WHERE YOU WOULD HAVE MET ALL OF THESE PEOPLE WHO WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW, REFUGEES, AND THE MOST VULNERABLE.

>> ABSOLUTELY, EVEN BEFORE THE PITT, SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT I WERE LUCKY -- WAS LUCKY ENOUGH TO CALL MY FRIENDS WERE DOCTORS THAT WORK IN CONFLICT ZONES.

AS MUCH INFORMATION AND EXPERIENCE AS I COULD FROM MY FRIENDS AND THE PEOPLE THAT I SPOKE TO, TO UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, WHAT KIND OF PERSON IT TAKES TO LEAVE YOUR LIFE, LEAVE YOUR FAMILY, AND THE COMFORT OF YOUR HOME AND REALLY GO TO AN UNFAMILIAR PLACE , AN UNKNOWN PLACE AND RISK YOUR LIFE WHERE HELP IS NEEDED THE MOST .

IT TAKES A PARTICULAR KIND OF PERSON TO DO SUCH SELFLESS ACTS , TO GO TO PLACES LIKE LEBANON, AFGHANISTAN, SOME PLACES MY CHARACTER SERVED.

AND TO GO TO THESE AREAS WHERE, IN SOME CASES, ENTIRE CITIES ARE ONE CONTINUOUS EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT WHERE RESOURCES ARE SCARCE AND THE NEED IS OVERWHELMING.

SOMETHING THAT MOVED ME AND I LAYERED INTO THE URETER, ACROSS- THE-BOARD, ANYBODY WHO I HAVE TALKED TO, SEEN, OR READ A SPEECH, WHEN THEY CAME BACK FROM HAVING BEEN DEPLOYED, TALKS ABOUT, DESPITE THE HORROR, DESTRUCTION, DEATH, THEY WOULD GO BACK IN A HEARTBEAT, EVEN IN THE DEPTHS OF DARKNESS, THEY WITNESSED EXTRAORDINARY ACTS OF GENEROSITY.

SO, FOR ME, IT WAS IMPORTANT TO HOLD THE VOICES OF HER COLLEAGUES THAT SHE HAS LEFT BEHIND , TO HOLD THEIR PRACTICE AND HER OWN PRACTICE.

I THINK THIS DETAIL GIVES A SPECIFIC GRAVITY TO THIS WORLD IN THE PENN.

>> TO HAVE SOMEBODY AS AN AMBASSADOR AND ADVOCATE, WE KNOW THIS GLOBAL FATIGUE, YOU KNOW, WITH ONE THING AFTER THE OTHER IN TERMS OF GLOBAL CRISES, SOME OF THESE REALLY IMPORTANT STORIES GET SHORT SHRIFT.

>> ABSOLUTELY, I WANTED TO BRING INTO THIS CONVERSATION, YOU KNOW, THE VOICE OF ANOTHER DISPLACED PERSON, A REFUGEE THAT I RECENTLY MET, CHRISTIANE.

SHE SPOKE ABOUT VERY FAMILIAR SENTIMENTS, SHE EXPRESSED TO ME THAT SHE FELT THAT HER LIFE HAD BEEN UPENDED, THAT HER FUTURE AND HER CHILDREN HAD BEEN JEOPARDIZED AND THAT HER PROTECTIONS MIGHT BE COMPROMISED, AND THE ONLY THING THAT HELPED HER , THAT HELPED HER AND HER FAMILY, YOU KNOW, SURVIVE, THE DISPLACEMENT EXPERIENCE, WAS THE SOLIDARITY, EMPATHY, AND COMPASSION THAT COMES WITH EXPERIENCE .

SO IT DOES TAKE A LOT OF SOLIDARITY TO ADDRESS THESE EXPERIENCES.

DOING THE WORK , AND CALLS FOR SEE IN THIS WORLD.

>> AGAIN, WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE REFUGEES AND MIGRANTS , SOME OF THE MOST PUSHED BACK AGAIN COMMUNITIES RIGHT NOW, EUROPE, THE UNITED STATES, THIS IRAN WAR HAS EXACERBATED THE ISSUE, I THINK SO HAS THE WAR ON LEBANON.

I JUST WANT TO SHARE WITH YOU A SOUNDBITE OF AN ELDERLY MAN WHO SAW HIS ENTIRE HOME AND POSSESSIONS DESTROYED.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> Translator: I WANTED TO GO AND SEE THE HOUSE.

I WENT ON FOOT, AND WHEN I SAW THE SCENE, I STARTED TO CRY .

THERE WAS A SHOP , IT IS ALL GONE.

YES INDEED, THANK GOD MY CHILDREN REMAIN SAFE AND WE WERE NOT HURT.

>> IT IS JUST EXTRAORDINARY.

THIS MAN IS ACTUALLY 90 YEARS OLD.

BRIEFLY, SHERINE, TELL ME THE STATE OF THINGS IN LEBANON.

ACTUALLY SEEING THIS PARTICULAR CRISIS AND WHAT HAS BECOME OF PEOPLE DISPLACED BY THE WAR IN IRAN.

>> WELL, A COUPLE OF THINGS.

IN LEBANON ITSELF, OVER 1.2 MILLION PEOPLE DISPLACED SINCE THE ESCALATIONS OF MARCH THE SECOND.

MANY, MANY, MANY OF THESE PEOPLE ARE DISPLACED INTO LOCATIONS THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, UNFORGIVING.

SOMETIMES UNWELCOMING.

THERE ARE OVER 700 COLLECTED -- SHELTERS BUT THEY ARE ONLY HOUSING A FRACTION OF THE PEOPLE DISPLACED.

>> LET'S TALK WITH SEPIDEH.

YOU ARE IN THE UNITED STATES, RIGHT NOW, ACCORDING TO CNN THERE IS MAYBE A PLAN TO STRIP SOME 250 AMERICAN IMMIGRANTS OF THEIR U.S.

CITIZENSHIP .

THE WORD ALIEN IS USED.

I THINK YOU, YOURSELF, WERE TEASED OR BULLIED BY THE FACT THAT AS A FOREIGNER, YOU ARE AN ALIEN AND THE WHITE HOUSE USES THAT NOW, ON ITS WEBSITE.

SO, THE ATMOSPHERE AROUND MIGRATION AND REFUGEES, WITH YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> I MEAN, IT IS OVERWHELMING AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS HAD CLOSE PROXIMITY TO A LIVED EXPERIENCE AND SOMEONE BEARING WITNESS, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU MENTIONED THE REFUGEE CAMP, THE PEOPLE THAT MEANT TO BE A TEMPORARY SETTLEMENT, AND I MET SO MANY PEOPLE WHO LIVED THERE FOR YEARS AND YEARS, WOMEN'S AND MOTHERS , WHOSE CHILDREN WERE 9, 10, 11 YEARS OLD.

IT IS THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

WE ARE TO BLAME.

WE HAVE TURNED OUR BACKS.

I WILL SAY, THAT DESPITE THIS REALITY, THESE PEOPLE HAVE TAKEN A PLOT OF LAND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT IN JORDAN AND BLOSSOMED LIFE.

IT TURNED INTO A BUSTLING CITY, BUSTLING WITH LIFE.

I'VE MET ARTISTS WHO INVITED ME TO BETTER CREATIVE PROCESS .

I MET HEALTH CLINIC MEMBERS , WITH ARTISTS WHO GAVE ME A TOUR OF THE FACILITIES AND I MET STUDENTS, EDUCATORS, AND MANY OF THE STAFF WORKING THERE ARE REFUGEES THEMSELVES, THEY ARE SUPPORTING AND SERVICING THE COMMUNITIES THAT THEY ARE FROM.

I WAS DEEPLY MOVED BUT I WAS ALSO DISTURBED, BECAUSE YOU KNOW, THE BEST REFUGEE CAMP DOES NOT NEED TO EXIST.

IT IS INCUMBENT UPON ALL OF US TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO FIND A SAFE PATHWAYS FOR PEOPLE TO RETURN HOME IF THAT IS POSSIBLE AND IF NOT, TO RESETTLE THEM, WITH WELCOMING , OPEN ARMS, INTO OUR COUNTRIES, AND THAT IS WHERE THE IRC 'S WORK COMES INTO PLAY.

THEY PROVIDE LIFE-SAVING AID AND RESOURCES AND TERROR, BUT ALSO HELPING REFUGEES RESETTLE.

THAT IS WHY I AM SO COMMITTED TO THE ORGANIZATION BECAUSE THEY NOT ONLY HELP DISPLACED PEOPLE CHANGE THEIR STORY IN THE MEDIA, THEY HELP THEM RESETTLE AND REBUILD THEIR PRIDE IN THEIR LIVES.

THEIR WORK IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER RIGHT NOW.

>> SEPIDEH, THANK YOU INDEED.

WE ALSO THANK SHERINE IBRAHIM AS WELL.

TO GET IT SO MOVING TO HEAR YOU TALK ABOUT THESE PROFESSIONALS.

THEY HAVE BECOME PROFESSIONALS, AND WE TEND TO FORGET THAT THEY ARE SO RICH IN HUMAN RESOURCES AND POTENTIAL.

IT IS GREAT THAT YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HIGHLIGHT THAT.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, CHRISTIANE.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> A DEEPLY PERSONAL STORY OF RACE, 100 YEARS AGO, TWO BLACK BROTHERS FROM NEW ORLEANS WERE SEPARATED BY THE HARSH REALITY OF THE JIM CROW LAWS, ONE WITH AS A BLACK MAN IN LOUISIANA.

THE OTHER WAS LIGHTER SKINNED, MOVED TO CHICAGO, PASSING AS WHITE.

TRACED HER OWN ANCESTRY, AND SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HER LEGACY OF THIS LONG-BURIED FAMILY SECRET.

>> SUSAN SAULNY , THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US.

I UNDERSTAND YOU ARE JOINING US FROM A VERY MEANINGFUL AND BEAUTIFUL LOCATION.

WHERE ARE YOU?

>> I AM IN THE LOWER GARDEN DISTRICT OF NEW ORLEANS , INSIDE THE HOME, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, OF MY GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER, COLONEL JOSEPH.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS THIS IS AMAZING, YOUR ARTICLE BEGINS WITH A FAMILY MYSTERY AND IT ENDS WITH A FAMILY REUNION.

SO, LET ME START WITH WHAT WAS THE MYSTERY.

>> MY GRANDFATHER AND HIS BROTHER SPENT TIME IN AN ORPHANAGE IN THE 1910s A PRETTY GRIM EXISTENCE .

THEY AGED OUT AT A TIME OF HARSH SEGREGATION, ONE OF THE BROTHERS, JUST A FEW SHADES LIGHTER THAN MY GRANDFATHER, GEORGE, DECIDED TO TAKE A CHANCE ON A BETTER LIFE IN CHICAGO AS A WHITE MAN .

HIS SKIN COLOR ALLOWED HIM TO DO THAT.

MY GRANDFATHER, BEING A SHADE OR TWO DARKER, DID NOT MAKE THAT CHOICE.

I DON'T KNOW IF HE WANTED TO, BUT THE REALITY IS, HE STAYED IN NEW ORLEANS AND LIVED AS A BLACK MAN.

WHAT WE HAD AT THAT POINT WAS PARALLEL LIVES , WITH ONE BROTHER LIVING IN NEW ORLEANS AND HAVING CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN.

AND ONE BROTHER LIVING AS WHITE IN CHICAGO AND HAVING CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN.

WE HAVE A VERY NEAT, 100 YEAR ARC TO LIVE WITH.

THAT WAS THE SECRET, THAT WAS THE SECRET I HAVE KNOWN SINCE I WAS A LITTLE GIRL AND WE WERE TAUGHT NOT TO TALK ABOUT IT.

>> I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS.

HOW DID THIS COME UP, WHEN YOU ARE A CHILD?

>> MY GRANDFATHER STILL LOVED HIS BROTHER AND I THINK HE WISHED HIM THE BEST.

EDWARD THOUGHT, THIS IS HIS OPPORTUNITY AND GEORGE WANTED HIM TO DO IT, GEORGE WAS A PROTECTIVE OLDER BROTHER AND WANTED US TO PROTECT EDWARD BY NOT TALKING ABOUT IT .

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A TIME WHEN A MAN, A BLACK MAN FOUND TO BE POSING AS WHITE COULD FACE MOB VIOLENCE, PERHAPS EVEN LYNCHING.

HE COULD LOSE HIS JOB, LOSE HIS HOME.

IN MY GRANDFATHER'S TIME, THIS SECRET WAS LIFE OR DEATH.

HE PASSED THE SECRET ON TO HIS CHILDREN, HIS UNCLE PASSED, AND THEY WERE NOT TO TALK ABOUT IT.

AND MY GENERATION PASSED ON, OF WHICH THERE WERE 30.

GEORGE CREATED A REALLY BIG FAMILY .

HE WAS NOT RICH IN POSSESSIONS, BUT HE WAS RICH IN LOVE.

BOTH BROTHERS WERE ABLE TO CREATE SOMETHING FROM SCRATCH.

IN EDWARD'S CASE, IT WAS A SMOOTH TRAJECTORY TO THE MIDDLE CLASS, HOMEOWNERSHIP, BUYING A CAR, THE CHILDREN WENT TO COLLEGE, SOME WENT TO LAW SCHOOL, EVERYONE HAD A COMFORTABLE LIFESTYLE, SUMMERS ON LAKE MICHIGAN.

IN GEORGE'S CASE, REMEMBER, THE SAME UPBRINGING FOR THESE BOYS.

JUST A FEW SHADES APART IN COLOR, GEORGE DID NOT HAVE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES IN NEW ORLEANS.

GEORGE COULD NOT FIND WORK EXCEPT AS A BRICKLAYER AND HE LAID BRICKS UNTIL HE RETIRED.

HE WAS LIVING IN POVERTY FOR QUITE A LOT OF TIME DURING THE DEPRESSION.

AND I HAVE HEARD STORIES ABOUT HOW HE BURNED HIS OWN FURNITURE FOR FIREWOOD WHEN IT WAS COLD.

OR HOW HE WOULD GO LOOK FOR FOOD THAT FELL OFF OF CARGO SHIPS UNLOADING AT THE MISSISSIPPI DOCKS.

THIS WAS A MAN WHO HAD A GOOD AMOUNT OF INTELLIGENCE AND AMBITION THAT YOU CAN SEE HOW RACE PLAYED OUT ACROSS TIME, ACROSS FAMILIES AND THAT IS WHAT I WAS HOPING THIS ARTICLE WITH JOE.

YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THAT PASSING IS A HISTORICAL FACT.

BILBO WAS THE EMOTIONAL POLE, THE PSYCHOLOGICAL TOLL, AND HOW DID THE PAIN MORPH AND MUTATE OVER GENERATIONS ?

THAT IS WHAT I WAS HOPING TO ADD TO THE CONVERSATION, TO SEE THE LIVED EXPERIENCES OF AN ACTUAL FAMILY GOING THROUGH THIS, BLACK AND WHITE, NORTH AND SOUTH.

>> IT WAS POPE LEO, THE FIRST AMERICAN POPE, HIS FAMILY HAD TRAILS IN NEW ORLEANS.

HOW DID THAT MAKE YOU KIND OF THINK DIFFERENTLY ABOUT YOUR FAMILY, OR DID IT?

>> I REMEMBER WHEN THE AMERICAN POPE WAS ANNOUNCED , THE AMOUNT OF EXCITEMENT ACROSS THE MEDIA AND COUNTRY, LATER THAT NIGHT, TO BE CONFIRMED BY A LOCAL ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW ORLEANS, POPE LEO'S MATERNAL GRANDPARENTS LIVED IN THE SEVENTH WARD, THE HISTORIC CENTER OF AFRO CREOLE CULTURE, THEY IDENTIFIED AS BLACK AND MILANO, AND LIVED AS A WHITE FAMILY IN CHICAGO.

IT FELT LIKE THE QUIET PART OF SO MANY CREOLE HISTORIES WAS JUST SAID OUT LOUD AND I THOUGHT, I CAN HELP EXPLAIN, NOT THE POPE'S STORY IN PARTICULAR, BUT THE CIRCUMSTANCES AT THE TIME THAT MIGHT LEAD SOMEONE TO MAKE A DECISION THAT WAY.

I COULD FOCUS ON MY OWN FAMILY AND PROVIDE SOME HISTORICAL THIS MOMENT.

THAT WAS ONE REASON THAT MY MOTHER HAS NEVER KNOWN, SHE IS 85 NOW .

WHAT HAPPENED TO HER UNCLE, SHE DID NOT KNOW WHAT HE DIED YOUNG, HOW MANY CHILDREN, IF YOU HAD CHILDREN AT ALL.

I WANTED IT TO BE PEACE OF MIND AS SHE ENTERS HER FINAL YEARS.

AND I HAD A FEELING, THE SECRET IS NOT A MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH, THIS GENERATION OF DESCENDENTS OF EDWARD WOULD PROBABLY BE MORE OPEN TO HAVING MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THEIR FAMILY AND IT TURNS OUT THAT ALL OF THAT WAS TRUE.

>> LET'S GO BACK TO WHERE YOU ARE.

HOW IS IT THAT YOUR GRANDFATHER'S WERE LIVING IN POVERTY ?

IF THEIR GRANDFATHER LIVED IN THAT HOUSE ?

WHAT IS THE STORY?

>> THAT IS REALLY GREAT QUESTION.

THIS HOUSE WAS BUILT IN THE MID- 800S, AND THE OWNER, MY GREAT -GREAT GRANDFATHER, USED SLAVE LABOR TO BUILD WEALTH AND WAS SOMEONE WHO FOUGHT FOR THE SOUTH IN THE CIVIL WAR AND HE HAD STRONG, CERTAIN IDEAS ABOUT THE SEPARATION OF THE RACES.

HIS SON THOUGHT DIFFERENTLY.

AND HIS SON, MY GREAT- GRANDFATHER NED , ENDED UP HAVING A VERY OPEN RELATIONSHIP WITH A BLACK WOMAN IN THE CITY WHO LIVED A FEW MILES AWAY, IN THE HISTORIC PART OF CREOLE CULTURE.

A LOT OF WHITE MEN AT THE TIME HAD SECRET FAMILIES BUT WHAT WAS DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS RELATIONSHIP, MED LIVED OPENLY.

NED WAS DIFFERENT FOR HIS TIME TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHY.

MAYBE SOME OF HIS FORMATIVE YEARS WERE DOING --DURING RECONSTRUCTION AND HE HAD A MORE OPTIMISTIC VIEW OF HOW MUCH EASIER THAN IT TURNED OUT TO BE.

BUT NED AND HIS FATHER HAD A FALLING OUT, YOU CAN IMAGINE, A CONFEDERATE VETERAN'S SON , WHO IS OPENLY LIVING AND HAVING CHILDREN WITH A BLACK WOMAN, THE COLONEL WHO LIVED IN THIS HOUSE DID NOT APPROVE.

SO, WHEN THE CHILDREN'S MOTHER DIED YOUNG, AND NED FOUND HIMSELF ALONE WITH THOSE CHILDREN, MY GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER WHO LIVED HEREIN 8000 SQUARE FEET OF SPACE, DID NOT TAKE THEM IN, AND THAT IS HOW THEY ENDED UP IN AN ORPHANAGE CALLED AN ASYLUM FOR COLORED BOYS.

>> SO HOW DID EDWARD WIND UP GETTING TO CHICAGO?

>> I THINK EDWARD, THROUGH HIS FATHER, HAD EXPOSURE TO THE WHITE WORLD AND PROBABLY PICKED UP ON HOW TO PRETEND TO BE PART OF IT.

WITH HIS LIGHT COMPLEXION, I TEENS OR EARLY 20s, HE DECIDED THERE IS NOTHING FOR ME IN NEW ORLEANS.

NO TIME, NO MONEY, NO JOB OPPORTUNITIES, NOT MUCH EDUCATION.

HE DIED IN THE 1970s.

I IMAGINE HE HAD TO MAKE A VERY HARD CHOICE BETWEEN FAMILY AND SURVIVAL AND HE CHOSE SURVIVAL.

AND I DO NOT KNOW , AS WELL, WHETHER MY GRANDFATHER WAS UPSET OR DISTRAUGHT OR SUPPORTIVE.

HOWEVER HE FELT, IN THE END, HE DECIDED TO KEEP THE SECRET AND WISH FOR THE BEST FOR HIS BROTHER.

>> SO, LET'S FAST-FORWARD.

YOU ALWAYS KNEW THAT YOU HAD THIS ANCESTOR, YOU WERE NOT REALLY SURE, FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM, HOW THE WHITE BRANCH OF THE FAMILY WOULD REACT TO YOUR QUERIES .

WHAT WERE YOU ANXIOUS OR WORRIED ABOUT ?

>> I THINK MY GRANDFATHER'S VOICE WAS IN MY EAR SOMEWHERE, JUST LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE.

JUST LEAVE THINGS ALONE.

GRANDFATHER'S WISHES.

AS A GRANDDAUGHTER WHO IS SOMEWHAT OBEDIENT, I KNEW THAT I WAS DOING SOMETHING THAT GRANDPA GEORGE MAY NOT APPROVE OF.

RIGHT?

20 YEARS OR SO AGO I LIVED IN CHICAGO, AND I COULD HAVE REACHED OUT TO THEM, BUT THINK ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF RACIAL ANIMUS AND THE POLARIZATION AND THE HATE CRIMES, I REMEMBER THINKING, MAYBE THIS IS SOMETHING I JUST DON'T WANT TO TOUCH.

I PRIORITIZED IT NOW , FOR A WHOLE HOST OF DIFFERENT REASONS THAT HAVE THE DO WITH BEING MORE MATURE MYSELF, AND DROPPING THE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT HOW THE OTHER SIDE WOULD REACT, MY MOTHER'S AGE, AND THE POPE'S ANNOUNCEMENT THAT WE ARE IN A SOCIETY NOW THAT IS SO DEEPLY CONNECTED ONLINE, AND IN EVERY OTHER WAY, IT IS HARD TO KEEP A SECRET THESE DAYS.

I HAD A FEELING THAT I WOULD BE GIVING THEM INFORMATION THAT MAYBE THEY ALREADY KNEW, OR AT LEAST HAD AN INKLING OF.

SURE ENOUGH, THAT TURNED OUT TO BE THE CASE.

>> HOW DID YOU GO ABOUT FINDING THEM?

HOW DID THEY REACT WHEN YOU REACHED OUT?

>> I HAD A GOOD AMOUNT OF RESEARCH AND I THANK THE NEW YORK TIMES FOR THAT.

WE USED ALL SORTS OF ANCESTRY TOOLS AND I LOOKED FOR OBITUARIES, I LOOKED ON SOCIAL MEDIA, OLD NEWSPAPERS , THERE WAS A LOT WRITTEN IN ANCIENT FRENCH.

WE TRIED TO GATHER EVERY BIT OF INFORMATION WE COULD, ABOUT MY GRANDPARENTS, GREAT- GRANDPARENTS, AND THEIR DESCENDENTS.

IT CAME DOWN TO THE VERY GENTLE REACHING OUT AND JUST HOPING FOR THE BEST AND I REACHED OUT WITH SHORT MESSAGES, EITHER OVER SOCIAL MEDIA, I FOUND AN EMAIL ADDRESS.

IN A SEARCH, YOU COME UP WITH A PHONE NUMBER.

THE FIRST , WITH ONE COUSIN, HER NAME WAS CHRISTINE, I GOT SUCH A POSITIVE REACTION FROM HER, I WAS REALLY ENCOURAGED TO KEEP GOING.

AS SOON AS SHE SAW THE MESSAGE SHE WROTE BACK SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF, YES, OF COURSE I WOULD LOVE TO, WHEN CAN WE TALK?

THROUGH CHRISTINE, I FOUND OUT SHE HAD LONG-STANDING QUESTIONS SHE WANTED ANSWERED .

SHE SAID COUSIN LAUREN FEELS THIS WAY, TOO.

SO, THROUGH ONE PERSON I LEARNED ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE, AND I SLOWLY MADE MY WAY THROUGH THE FAMILY TREE.

INTRODUCING MYSELF AS SOMEONE WHO SHARED A COMMON ANCESTOR AND ALSO PUTTING OUT PRETTY QUICKLY THAT I WAS A WRITER AND REPORTER AND THAT I WANTED TO SHARE OUR STORY.

>> WHEN YOU FIRST ENCOUNTERED SOME OF THE FAMILY MEMBERS, THERE WERE TEARS?

>> OH, YES.

>> THERE WERE TEARS.

SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> WHEN EVERYONE LEFT KNEW WE -- LOUISIANA , NEW ORLEANS, HE LEFT HIS CULTURE, HE CARRIED A SECRET, ALONG WITH HIS WIFE, SHE WAS ALSO A VERY LIGHT- COMPLEXION CREOLE, PASSING IN CHICAGO AS A WHITE WOMAN.

THE TWO WERE BONDED BY THEIR COVER STORIES.

THEY MUST HAVE EXPERIENCED QUITE A BIT OF ISOLATION BECAUSE OF FEAR.

IF YOU GET TO --TOO CLOSE, TO SOMEONE, MAYBE THEY WILL FIGURE IT OUT.

CHRISTINE SAID I WAS ALWAYS WANTING TO KNOW MORE ABOUT WHERE THEY CAME FROM, WHO THEIR GRANDPARENTS WERE, AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND THEY DO NOT HAVE THAT SENSE THAT I GREW UP WITH, IN NEW ORLEANS, OF AN ENORMOUS, SPRAWLING FAMILY .

I THINK THEY WANTED THAT.

WHEN YOU LONG FOR THAT ALL YOUR LIFE, ONE DAY, IT IS EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY YOU DID NOT HAVE IT AND THEN YOU HAVE IT, BECAUSE WE WERE ALL THERE WITH OPEN ARMS.

I THINK THE EMOTION OF IT WAS JUST OVERWHELMING TO THEM.

>> DOES ANYONE NOT FEEL THAT WAY?

>> IT IS AN UNDERSTANDABLE QUESTION.

ANGER IS AMONG THE RESPONSES THAT YOU CAN HAVE, ESPECIALLY IN THE PAST.

WHY HIM AND NOT US?

WAS IT A SELFISH AND ESCAPIST THING TO DO?

I THINK, WHEN I WAS A LITTLE GIRL THAT I HEARD THE FIRST STORY ABOUT THE MAN WHO LEFT THE FAMILY, I THOUGHT, WHAT?

WE WERE NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR HIM, I MAY HAVE HAD FEELINGS THAT WERE ANGER.

I DID NOT UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING THEN.

AS I GREW UP, I UNDERSTOOD MORE AND I COULD SEE HIM AS A FULLER PERSON WITH A LOT OF EMPATHY.

AND NOW I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THAT HE WAS STUCK IN A TERRIBLE SYSTEM THAT FORCED HARD CHOICES HAVE RATHER DONE OTHER THINGS WITH THEIR LIVES.

BUT THE SYSTEM , JUDGING PEOPLE ALONG COLOR LINES, IT , ALONG THOSE LINES, IS ILLOGICAL, ABSURD, AND COMPLETELY ARBITRARY.

AND THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO SHOW WITH THE FAMILY STORY.

AND WHAT I HOPED , YOU KNOW, THAT THE STORY GIVES US AN OPPORTUNITY TO THINK DEEPLY ABOUT OUR OWN RACIAL HISTORY IN THIS COUNTRY AND HOW IT PLAYS OUT IN FAMILIES, ACROSS TIME.

>> BEFORE A LADY GO, THE COUNTRY IS BEGINNING TO COMMEMORATE THE 250th ANNIVERSARY OF THE FOUNDING OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND YOUR STORY ENCOMPASSES ALMOST ALL OF IT.

SLAVERY, THE CIVIL WAR, JIM CROW, IT IS ALSO THE GREAT MIGRATION.

IS THIS SOMETHING YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT, AS THE COUNTRY ENTERS THIS PERIOD OF YOU HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT HOW YOUR OWN FAMILY STORY FITS INTO THAT BIGGER STORY.

WHAT COMES TO MIND AND WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE US TO BE THINKING ABOUT ?

>> THAT WE ARE ALWAYS WORKING TOWARD SOMETHING BETTER.

MY STORY, OUR STORY, SO MANY PEOPLE 'S STORY IS ABOUT RACE, POVERTY, AND INJUSTICE AND A SHAMEFUL PART OF THE AMERICAN PAST BUT IT IS EQUALLY ABOUT LOVE, LOYALTY, AND RESILIENCE AND THE POSSIBILITY OF NEW BEGINNINGS.

OF JOY, OF HOPE.

AND THAT LATTER PART IS THE PART THAT I AM TRYING TO FOCUS ON.

AND I THINK THE MORE EMPATHY WE HAVE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT EXACTLY LIKE US , IN OUR CASE, IT IS ME BEING SOUTHERN AND BLACK AND OPENING MYSELF UP TO COUSINS IN CHICAGO WHO ARE MIDWESTERN AND WHITE.

THE MORE WE CAN SEE OTHER PEOPLE AS EXTENSIONS OF OURSELVES , THE MORE WE CAN MOVE OUR COUNTRY FORWARD OUT OF THE POLARIZATION AND GRIDLOCK THAT WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW AND ESPECIALLY OUT OF THE PITS OF RACIAL ANIMUS THAT SOME OF US , IN THE WAKE OF THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS, MANY PROMINENT PEOPLE IN THIS NATION, FRAMING THINGS IN TERMS OF US VERSUS THEM.

I THINK THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT OUR PAST AND GET A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT STILL NEEDS TO BE HEALED IN AMERICA.

>> SUSAN SAULNY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>>> AND FINALLY, HAMMERING HOME UKRAINIAN WORKERS BEGAN REPAIRS TO THE MONASTERY IN KYIV AFTER IT WAS BADLY DAMAGED IN A MAJOR ATTACK BY RUSSIA ON MONDAY.

HIMSELF -- POSITIONED HIMSELF AS A DEFENDER OF CHRISTIANITY.

IT IS A UNESCO HERITAGE SITE, ALL THE WAY BACK ALMOST 1000 YEARS.

THE RUSH TO REPAIR DEMONSTRATES ONE MORE TIME, UKRAINE WILL NOT ALLOW PUTIN TO BREAK ITS WILL.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT BUT IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP IN THE NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER, AT PBS.ORG / ALLMAN POOR -- AMANPOUR